Harmonic Minor Tube

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:20 pm

Jumbuk wrote: The point of this flute is that it is NOT a natural minor scale - it has a major 7th.
........

In other words its a harmonic minor flute .

Of course with harmonic minor intervals you won't get any modes relative to a major scale tube unless you xfinger the 7th and then you will get one diatonic mode, namely Phrygian Mode (the major scale's 3rd mode) from
XXO OOO tonic.

And you will get these
* the harmonic minor scale for Raag Kirwani (carnatic trad. and recently hind.) and for Eastern Euro and Middle Eastern melodies
* a scale from XXX OOO for Carnatic (South Indian) Mode Hemaavati
* the famous Eastern European/Middle Eastern Ahava Rabba scale from XXO OOO (also known as Raag Basant Mukhari)
* as above but with xfingered 7th for Raag Bhairavi (Phrygian mode) for indic, middle eastern, Eastern European, Greek and Flamenco music.
* a xfingered 7th tonic OXX OOO for Raag Ahir Bhairav scale (bell note omitted)
*OOO OOO tonic for hexatonic Raag Gujari Todi with xfingered 7th and 6th vent always covered.

This post is as much for me as for others becuase I have ordered a harmonic minor tube and this will serve as a memo to self. Please feel welcome to ask for clarification. Challeges may assist corrections where needed and development of list.

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:27 pm

Well, actually, this is WAAAY more information than I expected or needed, but it's interesting just the same! Answer: I bought it because it was only $15 and looked like fun, which it is. And really, there's no reason why you can't play tunes in different scales and modes, once you get your ear atuned to them. I'm enjoying it for what it is, and it has broadened my horizons. (Especially after this! .

).

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:44 pm

Comment on the Harmonic Minor Scale

This is a western music theory term for a notional scale in western music. It is a non diatonic, heptatonic scale which is actually played in various Eastern European and Exotic traditions from Europe to, at least, India (pardon my ignorance of Oriental trad). The term itself is often confused with the other non standard minor scale of modern western music theory, the melodic minor scale.

western music explanation
this is a scale with a minor 3rd interval and a minor 6th interval with all other notes natural. That is, it is a natural minor scale with the exception that the 7th interval is sharpened by a semitone to regain its leading note capacity.

north indic explanation
this is a scale with komal ga and komal dha for performance of Raag Kirwani

explanation for discursively challenged
D E F G A Bb C# D
or
C D Eb F G Ab B C
and transpositions thereof

explanation for mathematical types and flute makers
2:1:2:2:1:3:1

ITM explanation.
oh! go away will ya? g'arn!

mutepointe · Post by **mutepointe** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:24 pm

where i'm from, we make folks walk the plank for talking like that.

KateG · Post by **KateG** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:26 pm

just the info I was looking for! Thank you!

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:11 am

mutepointe wrote:where i'm from, we make folks walk the plank for talking like that.

I never knowed thare was any sea or ocean
at West Virginia. Must be crazy folks who'd
be pirates in a place like that.

Jack Bradshaw · Post by **Jack Bradshaw** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:23 am

talasiga wrote:Comment on the Harmonic Minor Scale

This is a western music theory term for a notional scale in western music. It is a non diatonic, heptatonic scale which is actually played in various Eastern European and Exotic traditions from Europe to, at least, India (pardon my ignorance of Oriental trad). The term itself is often confused with the other non standard minor scale of modern western music theory, the melodic minor scale.

western music explanation
this is a scale with a minor 3rd interval and a minor 6th interval with all other notes natural. That is, it is a natural minor scale with the exception that the 7th interval is sharpened by a semitone to regain its leading note capacity.

north indic explanation
this is a scale with komal ga and komal dha for performance of Raag Kirwani

explanation for discursively challenged
D E F G A Bb C# D
or
C D Eb F G Ab B C
and transpositions thereof

explanation for mathematical types and flute makers
2:1:2:2:1:3:1

ITM explanation.
oh! go away will ya? g'arn!

Thanks Tal (esp. the last

)

mutepointe · Post by **mutepointe** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:35 pm

talasiga wrote:
mutepointe wrote:where i'm from, we make folks walk the plank for talking like that.
I never knowed thare was any sea or ocean
at West Virginia. Must be crazy folks who'd
be pirates in a place like that.

when you get boarded by some creek pirates, then you'll see......

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:06 pm

Just a clarification. In my post where I said "pardon my ignorance of Oriental trad." I meant trads further afield from India as in South East Asia, China and Japan.

Harmonic Minor Scale on a Normal Keyless Flute
(including bansuri)
On another note, I do not think that a simple flute with six tone holes qualifies for the simple system flute forum unless its a major scale flute. I understand that this forum is conceived for chat about the normal simple system major scale from bell note flutes (and developments thereof). So just to bring this topic in line with the simple system flute forum, I am now describing how I play a harmonic minor scale on your normal Irish flute (Seery blackwood body):-

B Harmoinc Minor

XOO OOO
OOO OOO
XXX XXX
XXX XXO
XXX XOO
XXX OOO
XOX XXO OR XOX XXX (still experimenting)
XOO OOO +

I find my Tipple E and Eb flutes
a lot more responsive in the flute's lower octave
for
XOX XXO
than the Seery
but less so in the flute's middle octave
but there I half hole
XDO OOO

I take the same type of appraoch with bansuris, preferring
XOO OOO tonic for this scale.

However, classically trained bansuri player
would be more likely to

XXX OOO
XXO OOO
XDO OOO
DOO OOO
XXX XXX
XXX XXD
XXX XOO
XXX OOO +

(NB "D" in tablature means half-hole)

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:13 pm

mutepointe wrote:when you get boarded by some creek pirates, then you'll see......

are you trying to tell me that WV pirates make one walk the plank from one side of the creek to the other? Down here we call that a bridge.

mutepointe · Post by **mutepointe** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:54 pm

talasiga wrote:
mutepointe wrote:when you get boarded by some creek pirates, then you'll see......
are you trying to tell me that WV pirates make one walk the plank from one side of the creek to the other? Down here we call that a bridge.

2 words talasiga: snapping turtles

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:57 am

.......
Harmonic Minor Scale on a Normal Keyless Flute
(including bansuri)

............
classically trained bansuri player
would be more likely to

XXX OOO
XXO OOO
XDO OOO
DOO OOO
XXX XXX
XXX XXD
XXX XOO
XXX OOO +

(NB "D" in tablature means half-hole)

If you go to this deepakram site

you will be able to hear some Raaga Kirwani (a harmonic minor raaga )excerpts
as slow slow air and as song with rhythm.

Very very dark and bitter sweet.

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:48 pm

These posts are as much for me as for others because I have ordered a harmonic minor tube and this will serve as a memo to self. Please feel welcome to ask for clarification. Challeges may assist corrections where needed and development of list.

talasiga wrote:........
* a scale from XXX OOO for Carnatic (South Indian) Mode Hemaavati

Apparently, this one is called misheberekh in Klezmer trad.

Therefore we get the following three modes of harmonic minor scale
(IE without deviating from its notes via cross fingerings or half holings).

Raag Kirwaani (harmonic minor scale - Klezmer term not yet known by me) root mode from OOO OOO
Hemaavati (Klezmer's Misheberekh) sub dominant mode from XXX OOO
Raag Basant Mukhari (Klezmer's Ahava Rabba) dominant mode from XXO OOO

SIMPLE SYSTEM FLUTE RELEVANCE
And therefore, using my Irish flute approach as per above post (cross fingering for Bb) we can get these 3 modes from the following posis respectively:
root mode from XOO OOO
sub dom. mode from XXX XXO
dom. mode from XXX XOO

Anyone for F# Ahava Rabba on unkeyed Irish flute?

What about E Misheberekh then? Hmm?

C'mon, lets hear it from all you rich types who have got the equipage for audio clips ........

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:40 am

I am throwing this thread up again because I have had a couple of PM exchanges about this scale and this will make reference to the info. easier.

talasiga wrote:......
This post is as much for me as for others becuase I have ordered a harmonic minor tube and this will serve as a memo to self. Please feel welcome to ask for clarification. Challeges may assist corrections where needed and development of list.

I am glad this info. is interesting and helpful to some.
I am always learning myself and readers may note I have made some edits.

Rob Sharer · Post by **Rob Sharer** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:52 am

talasiga wrote:
mutepointe wrote:where i'm from, we make folks walk the plank for talking like that.
I never knowed thare was any sea or ocean
at West Virginia. Must be crazy folks who'd
be pirates in a place like that.
:P

Pirates d'eau doux!!!

-Capitaine Haddock

Chiff and Fipple Forums

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