high altitude trouble with whistle

skywatcher · Post by **skywatcher** » Thu May 30, 2002 2:06 pm

Hey!
I was in Yellowstone on Holiday a couple of weeks ago and was camping at the 8000 ft.
level. I got out my Overton Low to serenade the wildlife, and I could only get a few notes out before it seemed to "lock up". It was like someone had put a plug in it, and it just wouldn't play. I tried a few times later, and the same thing happened. When we went several thousand feet lower, it worked fine. Did the high altitude mess it up?
Thanks!

Kar · Post by **Kar** » Thu May 30, 2002 3:37 pm

I don't know about high altitude, but I live in SF and I find that I can't play very well when its windy. I get squeaks and squaks when I'm out at the bus stop, waiting in the wind, and then when I get home, it's fine.

And does cold affect metal whistles? It must...my physics knowledge is incredibly low. Anyone out there experienced any of these phenomena?

Isilwen · Post by **Isilwen** » Thu May 30, 2002 5:39 pm

I met a guy who makes Stellar Native American flutes at Dogwood Fest., and I remember in our conversation, he had mentioned something about how he'll sometimes have a flute that works wonderfully in the shop, but when they send it somewhere else with a different climate or altitude, it won't play or something.

So in my opinion, why couldn't the same factors affect a whistle? Granted, the Native American flutes are wood, but hey. Stranger things have happened...

Fred Johnson · Post by **Fred Johnson** » Thu May 30, 2002 5:57 pm

Hmmm. I suppose air pressure could be an issue. Since I live out here in Colorado maybe I can do some empirical testing of this. I live in a suburb on the East side of Denver at 5400 ft. It's not a long drive to get over 8000 ft. Once the snow melts I can go to the top of Mt. Evans at over 14,000 ft. I can also check with the Celtic music shop in Estes Park. That is at 7700 ft and the entrance to Rocky Mountian Nat. Park. I bet they would know if there is an effect. I'll check back after investigating.

Aodhan · Post by **Aodhan** » Thu May 30, 2002 11:31 pm

Fred-

Whereabouts in Colorado? I grew up in Denver, went to Western State and UNC in Greeley. Now I live in the arid, disgusting state of Arizona.

I'll most likely be back up in September to attend a feis (Irish dance competition) in Estes Park. If they have a music competition, I might enter as a whistler.

Maybe some of the fipplers (Chiffers? chips?) from the board could all meet at a good pub...

speaking of that, what IS a good Irish pub in Denver now? If you are in that area, that is...

John

DazedinLA · Post by **DazedinLA** » Fri May 31, 2002 5:28 am

Yes, where is a good Irish pub in Denver? I have a convention in Denver in October...it might be nice to break away from "THEM" at some point, perhaps even find a session...

Fred Johnson · Post by **Fred Johnson** » Fri May 31, 2002 6:47 am

I live in Aurora guys and an Irish pub I have been to on occasion is Sheabeans at Iliff and Chambers near where I live. Just a few FYI's. There is a famous Highlands festival in Estes Park I think in September. There is also a computer and Celtic music shop in the Old Church Shops in Estes Park. It's where I got hooked on whistles. They have tons of all kinds of whistles and other Celtic instruments too. If you are in that neck of the woods check them out for a WhOA fix. It's a good place to compare since they have so many kinds. If anyone is familiar with altutude effects they would know.

WyoBadger · Post by **WyoBadger** » Fri May 31, 2002 9:48 am

I've played quite a bit at high altitudes (10,000' or more) and never had big problems.

I think Fred has the right idea. Some whistles are more prone to condensation build-up than others. (that's my one and only complaint about my Hoovers--they clog up sometimes before I can get through one tune) Those with low breath pressure seem to be the worst in this regard. Since at high altitudes air pressure is lower, it makes sense that perhaps pressure in the windway would be reduced, contributing to condensation build-up.

If you're not used to the altitude and you're out of breath, the problem would be compounded.

So my advice is to try two things: 1. Give your whistle a good shake when it "freezes up" and see if you can get the moisture out of the windway--I'm pretty sure that's what's causing your problem. 2. Try spending a few days in the mountains and get through the "huffing and puffing" stage before playing your whistles.

Hope that helps.

Tom

p.s. Fred, how come you've never joined in on any of the Rocky Mountain Boys gatherings? We'd love you meet ya!

[ This Message was edited by: WyoBadger on 2002-05-31 11:50 ]

Aodhan · Post by **Aodhan** » Fri May 31, 2002 10:32 am

have been to on occasion is Sheabeans at Iliff and Chambers near where I live. Just a few FYI's. There is a famous Highlands festival in Estes Park I think in September. There is also a computer and Celtic music shop in the Old Church Shops in Estes Park. It's where I got hooked on whistles. They have tons of all kinds of whistles and other Celtic instruments too. If you are in that neck of the woods check them out for a WhOA fix. It's a good place to compare since they have so many kinds. If anyone is familiar with altutude effects they would know.

Iliff and Chambers...you aren't too far from where my parents live now. (They are a mile or two from Park Meadows, about a mile from Southglenn mall.)

I've been to that Highlands festival. I used to go every year when I was in High school. As I said, I'll most likely be up there in September for an Irish dance competition, maybe we can arrange to hook up at Sheabeans. (Although I doubt I will be up to session playing or anything by then, just starting on all this...

)

As far as the altitude, one thing I was thinking about was the cork (If you have a cork in the fipple). At higher altitudes, air has less pressure, so the same amount of air takes up more space. (Try it with a balloon, or my perennial favorite, contact saline bottle, they all swell as you go up in altitude. I've popped more caps going from Phx to Denver....but I digress)

Since a cork is mostly air, as you go up in altitude, wouldn't it tend to swell? As it swells, it would occlude more of the airway. (Sorry, ex-paramedic terminology, change occlude for block)

Ok, maybe that's a way off the mark simplistic explanation, but it does make sense...

Aodhan

dkehoe · Post by **dkehoe** » Fri May 31, 2002 2:19 pm

Whew - what bad physics!

1. I think that Kar had it right - wind will disrupt the turbulent eddies in the fipple window that the whistle relies on to cause the air column in the tube to resonate.

2. A metal whistle does contract and expand with temperature, but if you look up the thermal coefficient of expansion, the amount that ist changes the whistle length is incredibly small - not enough to have any detectable effect on tone or pitch. A cold whistle will condense your breath a lot until it warms up, and then still a little, so condensation could be the problem as WyoBadger points out.

3. The speed of sound does go down with altitude, so the pitch of a whistle will change with altitude, but again the effect is infintessimal.

4. At altitude, the absolute pressure in the windway would be less, but not the velocity, because the differential pressure in the windway would be the same. Hence, no more prone to condensation build-up.

5. None of the whistles I've seen have a cork in the fipple.

WyoBadger · Post by **WyoBadger** » Fri May 31, 2002 2:29 pm

I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on TV.

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Fri May 31, 2002 2:40 pm

There was a thread about this sometime back. I had the exact same "locking up" problem in the Canadian Rockies at about 8000'. I wondered if it was the altitude or just the colder weather causing condensation.

re. expansion coefficient for the physicists out there. If change in length due to temperure is not important, how about change in the diameter of the tube. What about different metals. Brass vs tin for example?

Cheers,

Stef.

[ This Message was edited by: Stef on 2002-05-31 16:42 ]

Fred Johnson · Post by **Fred Johnson** » Fri May 31, 2002 3:48 pm

Aodhan, If you want to hook up better to do it at the festival. I haven't been there before to it and should. It's a two hour drive down here from Estes Park. My email is fred.johnson@interfold.com If you want to hook up drop me an email. It's also good flyfishing on the Big Thompson there so if anyone comes make sure to pack flyrods with whistles.

As for all that physics stuff my druthers would be to get empirical. I just have to take a whistle or two with me to the mountains. I'll also ask the guys at that Celtic music shop. If anyone would have experience of this it would be them. I guess I should charge them for the plug here but they are well stocked with whistles. It's a good place to compare brands in one spot. Their shop is at about 7700 ft. As for corks expanding I thought they were porous. But on those lines do to gas expansion laws flactuance is more pronounced when you are at altitude. That's a sound warning for anyone going to the highland festival in Estes Park, lol.

WyoBadger · Post by **WyoBadger** » Fri May 31, 2002 4:14 pm

An aside: In larger metal instruments (i.e. the euphonium, tuba, saxophone, trumpet) changes in temperature can produce quite noticable changes in pitch.

Of course, we're talking about a whole bunch more metal than a whistle. Even in a large horn, though, moving a tuning slide a fraction of an inch CAN noticeably change the pitch. I'm not entirely convinced that the tiny size change caused by a change in temperature wouldn't have a noticable effect on whistles. A much smaller instrument will have need a much smaller change to effect the pitch.

My pure physics might be sloppy, but I'm an expert on things that make instruments go out of tune.

Maybe I'll do some experimantation with my refrigerator and tuner tonight. I wonder if I can put my Clarke D in the microwave to warm it up...

Anyway, all that is an aside--sorry for the birdwalk, Skywatcher. Condensation seems to be the trouble, not tuning. Was it cold in Yellowstone when you were trying to play? Dkehoe was right; cold instruments tend to clog up FAST.

So, you don't think thin air would have any effect on condensation? It just seems that if the air is less dense at high altitude, there are going to be fewer molecules passing through the windway to "push" condensation out of the way. I never claimed I was right. Just an idea. Can you tell me, in "normal" english, why this would not be the case?

I think "thermal coefficient of expansion" is a neat sounding expression, however. I plan on using it in sentences whenever possible. I think I even know what it means.

Tom
[edited to be SLIGHTLY less long-winded]

[ This Message was edited by: WyoBadger on 2002-05-31 18:17 ]

Tyghress · Post by **Tyghress** » Fri May 31, 2002 4:37 pm

I just dropped Thomas Hastay a note. I trust his science, and look forward to see if he has an explanation for high altitude lockup.

I would think that we all have dealt with condensation, and know what that feels like and how to get rid of it. A newbie at whistling isn't often going to go to a low D, bring it on vacation, and run into a situation where it just 'locks up'.

Oops...lightning...time for me to sign off!