[Note: This message comes in part from another thread, so any references that don't make sense can be found in the original message under the Geoff Wooff 25th anniversary thread.]
Peter has a very good point which is obviously related to the topic of price (and in Uilleann Piping in general). There are not many makers out there and the number of excellent makers are even fewer.
The other point Peter laments is that there has been no funding or effort towards formal training and very little effort put towards gathering and disseminating information concerning pipe making / pipe building. I think part of this is that a lot of makers want to keep their special methods to themselves. There are many makers, of course, who want to share as much information as they can (and these are usualy the better makers). The problem is that they have very little time on their hands to do this because they are busy trying to make enough pipes to keep their families alive.
Personally, I would be willing to apprentice to a pipemaker (Brad Angus lives around 20 minutes from me and I would jump at the opportunity to apprentice with him -- Any of his good friends would be welcome to pass this along to him). If Geoff Wooff would apprentice me, I'm sure I'd find some way to move myself and my son over to Ireland. Though I would prefer someone local due to custody issues. I'm relatively young, though I would probably be starting somewhat later than many pipemakers.
I think what we need to do to ensure the continuation of knowledgeable pipemakers is to start some kind of apprentice program. Either people willing to apprentice full time to a maker for not much pay (but hopefully enough to stay alive on) or through weekend classes given by a pipemaker.
Beyond that we need to start spreading everything and anything on pipemaking (such as David Daye has done). Post X-rays, measurement listings and computer CAD files on measurements. It'd be ideal if we could find a physics person interested in acoustics that could devote some time/energy (or a paper) on the acoustical properties of Uilleann Pipes.
These are all just beginning suggestions. Let's come up with some more. I'm going to post this to a new thread: 'Apprentice Pipemaking' so we can come up with some ideas. Post if you're willing to be an apprentice so that pipemakers know there is interest out there.
Dionys
Apprentice Pipemakers / Pipemaking
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Roger O'Keeffe
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Picking up a couple of points from the other thread, I seem to remember that Brendan or someone else in NPU was involved in getting Johnny Bourke fixed up with a FAS traineeship so that he could receive proper traing and an allowance while he was learning. If it was done once, I imagine it could be repeated and may well have been.
People making pipes in Ireland have also got Government grants to set up their workshops including purchase of equipment.
Even though he learnt his pipe-making skills in Ireland from Matt Kiernan, and although there was nobody in Germany who could examine him on the specifics of uilleann-pipe making, when Andreas Rogge returned to Germany he secured professional recognition and set himself up as a properly qualified master craftsman and has trained a succession of people whom he took on as apprentices.
So some of the mechanisms are there in some parts of the world. I don't know what facilities are like in the US, where Government funding seems to be hard to come by for anything except making things that might be useful for killing people with. Do you go looking for a venture capitalist or a rich sponsor? Or try to persuade the Pentagon that the pipes are really a nerve gas dispenser?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Roger O'Keeffe on 2002-04-27 16:18 ]</font>
People making pipes in Ireland have also got Government grants to set up their workshops including purchase of equipment.
Even though he learnt his pipe-making skills in Ireland from Matt Kiernan, and although there was nobody in Germany who could examine him on the specifics of uilleann-pipe making, when Andreas Rogge returned to Germany he secured professional recognition and set himself up as a properly qualified master craftsman and has trained a succession of people whom he took on as apprentices.
So some of the mechanisms are there in some parts of the world. I don't know what facilities are like in the US, where Government funding seems to be hard to come by for anything except making things that might be useful for killing people with. Do you go looking for a venture capitalist or a rich sponsor? Or try to persuade the Pentagon that the pipes are really a nerve gas dispenser?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Roger O'Keeffe on 2002-04-27 16:18 ]</font>
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Cayden
While to an extend, grants, especially a new grant scheme for traditional music from the Arts Council, are in place, there is not enough being done to pass on existing knowledge to increase the skills of people wanting to make the instrument.
Sure, people have been helped in the past but always and exclusively on an ad hoc basis. Bruce du Ve and Mary Bergin had a huge grant which set them up with a state of the art workshop and a whole set of FAS Wwokers to do the work, but they had to employ local kids whose only qualification was being unemployed so that was the end of that.
It's fine to have your workshop paid for but it's more important to obtain the knowledge and the the skills to actually make a good working instrument.
It's all fine when individuals organise a professional recoginition and set up a bunch of production line workers but that doesn't necessarily result in making really nice instruments at a reasonable price available to aspiring and deserving young players.
I teach a few very talented young kids and I find both are held back by the instruemtns they have to play [being a Rowsome set and a Lorcan Dunne/NPU practice set on loan], one of them is looking for a good instrument to buy with not too long a waiting list and honestly I wouldn't know which maker to recommend. It will have to be out of necessity a compromise between quality, availability and price, making do with a not so great instrument because that's what is available. Hardly a desirable situaton.
A more formal scheme to finance apprenticeships and/or courses in pipemaking would go a long way towards improving the present situation.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-04-28 05:13 ]</font>
Sure, people have been helped in the past but always and exclusively on an ad hoc basis. Bruce du Ve and Mary Bergin had a huge grant which set them up with a state of the art workshop and a whole set of FAS Wwokers to do the work, but they had to employ local kids whose only qualification was being unemployed so that was the end of that.
It's fine to have your workshop paid for but it's more important to obtain the knowledge and the the skills to actually make a good working instrument.
It's all fine when individuals organise a professional recoginition and set up a bunch of production line workers but that doesn't necessarily result in making really nice instruments at a reasonable price available to aspiring and deserving young players.
I teach a few very talented young kids and I find both are held back by the instruemtns they have to play [being a Rowsome set and a Lorcan Dunne/NPU practice set on loan], one of them is looking for a good instrument to buy with not too long a waiting list and honestly I wouldn't know which maker to recommend. It will have to be out of necessity a compromise between quality, availability and price, making do with a not so great instrument because that's what is available. Hardly a desirable situaton.
A more formal scheme to finance apprenticeships and/or courses in pipemaking would go a long way towards improving the present situation.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-04-28 05:13 ]</font>
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Dionys
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That it would, but what it ultimately comes down to is money. So we would either have to find some patron willing to sponsor apprentices or start writing various artisan grantors.
As for seeking $$ from the US government for anything to do with the arts, consider what they've done to the budget regarding arts. Then consider how they now distribute money to artists (The NEA no longer gives artist grants).
Anyone know Bill Gates or another Microsoft millionaire that has an affection for the pipes?
Dionys
As for seeking $$ from the US government for anything to do with the arts, consider what they've done to the budget regarding arts. Then consider how they now distribute money to artists (The NEA no longer gives artist grants).
Anyone know Bill Gates or another Microsoft millionaire that has an affection for the pipes?
Dionys
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CoyneLover
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Some thoughts to consider regarding apprenticeship.
Consider all the requests that pipe-maker's would get. Unfortuneately,think of the numbers of dishonest indivuduals that are out to simply either steal ideas...or learn enough JUST to make their own pipes...or those out to steal measurements and techniques....
not to mention the fact that each apprentice would represent COMPETITION. The business is hard enough.
Honestly...I think the art is doing quite well. There arequite a few very good makers out there. The level of intererst is high...without it being too high. One can always find used equipment. If not...the "entry" instruments are plentiful and relatively inexpensive.
On top of which...there IS something to be said for "doing it yourself. It'samazing how much one has to learn and be able to do to make adecent set of pipes. And I feel the best way to do it is to first study, get advice from the community, and to begin experimenting. From my experience, the pipe-makers that I know are more than willing to share expertise, and advice. ...note I did not mention proprietary information like chanter measurements etc etc...and those makers not willing to help someone out with advice..well...they can just feck off...
OOPS..sorry...Honestly...I love the idea...I would KILL to be able to apprentice to a select few makers (I can think of only 3 or 4 I would trust)...but I don't know that a "system" of apprenticeship is in out best interest.
Imagine if tomorrow there were 20 or 30 MORE skilled pipemakers...what would happen to the "supply" portion of the equation? And thus what would happen to the prices? Finally..they'd price themselvesso low...or the customer base would be so thin...that overall the pipe-making community would suffer...
Sorry...am I sounding fatalistic?
Consider all the requests that pipe-maker's would get. Unfortuneately,think of the numbers of dishonest indivuduals that are out to simply either steal ideas...or learn enough JUST to make their own pipes...or those out to steal measurements and techniques....
not to mention the fact that each apprentice would represent COMPETITION. The business is hard enough.
Honestly...I think the art is doing quite well. There arequite a few very good makers out there. The level of intererst is high...without it being too high. One can always find used equipment. If not...the "entry" instruments are plentiful and relatively inexpensive.
On top of which...there IS something to be said for "doing it yourself. It'samazing how much one has to learn and be able to do to make adecent set of pipes. And I feel the best way to do it is to first study, get advice from the community, and to begin experimenting. From my experience, the pipe-makers that I know are more than willing to share expertise, and advice. ...note I did not mention proprietary information like chanter measurements etc etc...and those makers not willing to help someone out with advice..well...they can just feck off...
OOPS..sorry...Honestly...I love the idea...I would KILL to be able to apprentice to a select few makers (I can think of only 3 or 4 I would trust)...but I don't know that a "system" of apprenticeship is in out best interest.
Imagine if tomorrow there were 20 or 30 MORE skilled pipemakers...what would happen to the "supply" portion of the equation? And thus what would happen to the prices? Finally..they'd price themselvesso low...or the customer base would be so thin...that overall the pipe-making community would suffer...
Sorry...am I sounding fatalistic?
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Tony
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CoyneLover, I'm not clear on your position regarding apprenticeship.
When a great master takes on an apprentice, it's to GIVE him the knowledge it took so many years to acquire with the understanding that one day, the apprentice will too become a great master. There is too much to learn for someone to 'steal' some ideas in a short period of time only to leave and setup shop in direct competition. The first few years of working for a master would probably be spent on less critical operations like making bags, bellows, turning parts for drones, etc.
I would say majority of pipemakers in the world today are at least 40 years old and have at between 10-15 years experience making Uilleann pipes or related woodwind instruments. Finding a pipemaker with less than a 2 year backlog is very difficult, especially if you are ordering a full set with custom features.
If every pipemaker took an apprentice we wouldn't see a significant decrease in backlog for a few years.
When a great master takes on an apprentice, it's to GIVE him the knowledge it took so many years to acquire with the understanding that one day, the apprentice will too become a great master. There is too much to learn for someone to 'steal' some ideas in a short period of time only to leave and setup shop in direct competition. The first few years of working for a master would probably be spent on less critical operations like making bags, bellows, turning parts for drones, etc.
I would say majority of pipemakers in the world today are at least 40 years old and have at between 10-15 years experience making Uilleann pipes or related woodwind instruments. Finding a pipemaker with less than a 2 year backlog is very difficult, especially if you are ordering a full set with custom features.
If every pipemaker took an apprentice we wouldn't see a significant decrease in backlog for a few years.
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Cayden
A few points there, I don't think there are more than a few 'very good ' makers [in fact Ithink there are less than only a few] and with waiting lists up to thirteen years, do you really think there isn't a supply problem.
And if there would be twenty good makers tomorrow, people would have choice to buy the instrument they like, not make do with one that happened to be available because the maker hadn't a waitinglist [and you can wonder why that is in the present situation]. Also prices would not be as inflated as they are now, workmanship should be paid well but people throwing anything over 8K at sets of pipes is whatever way you look at it, ridiculous. So Idon't see the pipingworld suffer from that situation at all.
And if there would be twenty good makers tomorrow, people would have choice to buy the instrument they like, not make do with one that happened to be available because the maker hadn't a waitinglist [and you can wonder why that is in the present situation]. Also prices would not be as inflated as they are now, workmanship should be paid well but people throwing anything over 8K at sets of pipes is whatever way you look at it, ridiculous. So Idon't see the pipingworld suffer from that situation at all.
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Dionys
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I seriously doubt pipemakers would get tons of requests. As for stealing 'ideas' and/or measurements, all one has to do for that is look on the net for measurements or get their hand on a chanter and make their own measurements. These portions of pipemaking aren't secret by any stretch of the imagination. One could even get an x-ray of their favourite chanter through a friend with access to an X-ray machine, or at a local animal hospital.
Considering the work that would go into making a set of pipes, I can't picture someone apprenticing to a pipemaker with the idea of stealing 'ideas.' To get beyond this, of course, wouldn't be too difficult with the apprentice signing a paper that says he/she will not share these ideas with other people or use them to build pipes for sale without having served at least a ?year's? worth of apprentice-ship. Besides. The idea is to make better pipemakers, and to increase the number of pipemakers.
Yes. Each apprentice represents competition. Competition is always good. "The business is hard enough." - Really? Is that why all the good pipemakers have waiting lists approaching 5 years to a decade? They can't find enough work? All sarcasm aside, any decent pipemaker seems to have at least a year and a half waiting list. I don't think there is a dearth of requests for well made pipes, and I doubt there ever will be. Every generation brings a new group of students and lovers of the pipes and it seems currently that each successive generation has more people interested in learning.
There aren't quite a few *very* good makers out there. There are quite a few makers out there. As for used equipment being easy to find, that's not generally true (as discussed in a seperate message - Most sets that come up on ebay or through other channels seem to make the rounds again and again). The "entry" instruments are pretty much limited to David Daye's set of pipes, which are very good and relatively inexpensive compared to purchasing a 'practice' set from a maker (which may involve a wait). Practice sets aren't 'relatively inexpensive' to anyone, unless you are talking about a Daye set (which I would reccomend to anyone starting out on pipes with a smaller budget).
You contradicted yourself. You said there is something to be said for 'doing it yourself,' then went on to note that it is 'amazing how much one has to learn and be able to do to make a decent set of pipes.' It makes more sense to have apprentices learn those basics towards making a good set of pipes in a shorter amount of time so that they can then concentrate their efforts towards improving design, experimenting with new designs and/or techniques and polishing their already good work into excellent instruments.
As for 'studying,' you will find there isn't much information out there other than measurements regarding making a set of pipes. Last time I checked, it would be hard for most people to build something like an x-ray machine with merely the schematics. There are many things one could learn from hands on experience building with a pipesmaker who could offer advice, guidance and visual/tactile clues right as you are learning. Getting 'advice' from the community means asking a bunch of people who may or may not know anything and sorting out the useful information from the chaff.
Again, "proprietary information like chanter measurements," isn't. Anyone can make measurements of a chanter they like. They can either borrow one from someone who owns one, or purchase one themselves to make the measurements. They can even go into serious detail and take x-rays. Some people have even gone so far as to make bore molds (though I would not suggest this to people). There is nothing 'proprietary' or secret about this information.
You're right. You don't know if a "system of apprenticeship is in out[sic] best interest." No one does for certain, but I think it would be a valuable thing to the piping community and towards furthering the number of well made pipes out there and reducing the number of borderline-quality and poor quality pipes. And no, the market doesn't eliminate poor makers. Just ask any number of pipers who bought from a maker who produced a borderline set for them. Yes, it is partly their fault for not doing the research, but it is also because they found the multiple year long waits for some of the better makers unbearable and because they expect an artisan selling uilleann pipes to have some sense of how to make a decent set of pipes.
Considering how many good makers there are in the world, and how long an apprenticeship (and further study) would take to complete, there would never be 20-30 more skilled pipemakers tommorow. Some apprentices won't work out, some will and will continue to go on to produce sets. While they were apprenticed to the makers they would be *slowing* their output by a minor amount at first and then upon learning the basics would be increasing the speed of their output. This would shorten the wait-list period over time and makers could eventually catch up to demand. Will they surpass demand? It could happen, but I seriously doubt it will.
Yes. Eventually supply would go up. Just as demand has been constantly growing in recent years, I imagine it would be a good thing if a supply of *good* pipes came to the market. What would happen to the prices? Supply over the past 10-20 years has steadily increased and I can say with certainty (having purchased pipes myself) that prices have increased. If you have knowledge to the contrary, I'd love to hear it because I would love a beautiful set of pipes at a less expensive price.
No pipe-maker would price their pipes low having gone through the apprenticeship to learn what they needed to learn to make pipes. People value their skills. I think you are projecting quite a bit into what you think other people would do. Not everyone is a thief who would 'steal' ideas, try to destroy the work of other pipemakers, try to corner the pipe-making market, price their 'competition' out of business or sell their soul to the devil to draw all the work to themselves.
Are you sounding fatalistic? No. Do you sound like a naysayer? Yes. Debate is always good, though.
Dionys
Considering the work that would go into making a set of pipes, I can't picture someone apprenticing to a pipemaker with the idea of stealing 'ideas.' To get beyond this, of course, wouldn't be too difficult with the apprentice signing a paper that says he/she will not share these ideas with other people or use them to build pipes for sale without having served at least a ?year's? worth of apprentice-ship. Besides. The idea is to make better pipemakers, and to increase the number of pipemakers.
Yes. Each apprentice represents competition. Competition is always good. "The business is hard enough." - Really? Is that why all the good pipemakers have waiting lists approaching 5 years to a decade? They can't find enough work? All sarcasm aside, any decent pipemaker seems to have at least a year and a half waiting list. I don't think there is a dearth of requests for well made pipes, and I doubt there ever will be. Every generation brings a new group of students and lovers of the pipes and it seems currently that each successive generation has more people interested in learning.
There aren't quite a few *very* good makers out there. There are quite a few makers out there. As for used equipment being easy to find, that's not generally true (as discussed in a seperate message - Most sets that come up on ebay or through other channels seem to make the rounds again and again). The "entry" instruments are pretty much limited to David Daye's set of pipes, which are very good and relatively inexpensive compared to purchasing a 'practice' set from a maker (which may involve a wait). Practice sets aren't 'relatively inexpensive' to anyone, unless you are talking about a Daye set (which I would reccomend to anyone starting out on pipes with a smaller budget).
You contradicted yourself. You said there is something to be said for 'doing it yourself,' then went on to note that it is 'amazing how much one has to learn and be able to do to make a decent set of pipes.' It makes more sense to have apprentices learn those basics towards making a good set of pipes in a shorter amount of time so that they can then concentrate their efforts towards improving design, experimenting with new designs and/or techniques and polishing their already good work into excellent instruments.
As for 'studying,' you will find there isn't much information out there other than measurements regarding making a set of pipes. Last time I checked, it would be hard for most people to build something like an x-ray machine with merely the schematics. There are many things one could learn from hands on experience building with a pipesmaker who could offer advice, guidance and visual/tactile clues right as you are learning. Getting 'advice' from the community means asking a bunch of people who may or may not know anything and sorting out the useful information from the chaff.
Again, "proprietary information like chanter measurements," isn't. Anyone can make measurements of a chanter they like. They can either borrow one from someone who owns one, or purchase one themselves to make the measurements. They can even go into serious detail and take x-rays. Some people have even gone so far as to make bore molds (though I would not suggest this to people). There is nothing 'proprietary' or secret about this information.
You're right. You don't know if a "system of apprenticeship is in out[sic] best interest." No one does for certain, but I think it would be a valuable thing to the piping community and towards furthering the number of well made pipes out there and reducing the number of borderline-quality and poor quality pipes. And no, the market doesn't eliminate poor makers. Just ask any number of pipers who bought from a maker who produced a borderline set for them. Yes, it is partly their fault for not doing the research, but it is also because they found the multiple year long waits for some of the better makers unbearable and because they expect an artisan selling uilleann pipes to have some sense of how to make a decent set of pipes.
Considering how many good makers there are in the world, and how long an apprenticeship (and further study) would take to complete, there would never be 20-30 more skilled pipemakers tommorow. Some apprentices won't work out, some will and will continue to go on to produce sets. While they were apprenticed to the makers they would be *slowing* their output by a minor amount at first and then upon learning the basics would be increasing the speed of their output. This would shorten the wait-list period over time and makers could eventually catch up to demand. Will they surpass demand? It could happen, but I seriously doubt it will.
Yes. Eventually supply would go up. Just as demand has been constantly growing in recent years, I imagine it would be a good thing if a supply of *good* pipes came to the market. What would happen to the prices? Supply over the past 10-20 years has steadily increased and I can say with certainty (having purchased pipes myself) that prices have increased. If you have knowledge to the contrary, I'd love to hear it because I would love a beautiful set of pipes at a less expensive price.
No pipe-maker would price their pipes low having gone through the apprenticeship to learn what they needed to learn to make pipes. People value their skills. I think you are projecting quite a bit into what you think other people would do. Not everyone is a thief who would 'steal' ideas, try to destroy the work of other pipemakers, try to corner the pipe-making market, price their 'competition' out of business or sell their soul to the devil to draw all the work to themselves.
Are you sounding fatalistic? No. Do you sound like a naysayer? Yes. Debate is always good, though.
Dionys
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boyd
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I wonder if that [above] was the longest post ever on the Uilleann Pipes forum?!!
Boyd.
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Boyd.
http://www.strathspeyinmay.com
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CoyneLover
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Dionys...
You make some VERY good points, and on some I do stand corrected. Isn't this great? THIS is what a good discussion is all about. However...let me reply to a few of your points if I can..hmm..
It's such a LONG post I'll see if I can remember!!
As for an apprentice "signing a piece of paper"? Worthless. For example, If I decide to go sky-diving..they will have me sign a waiver. It's not worth the paper it's printed on. No REAL legal merit in a "waiver". But, on the flip-side...In a TRUE apprenticeship system, I think it would be unnecessary. Once the piping community learned of the "shady" dealings of a new pipe-maker...this person would be VERY quickly shunned and out of business.
X-Rays...HMM..I've seen X-Rays of chanters before, and found them to be absolutely worthless. (in my experience) They are impossible to get a clear measurement from. Blurry and inaccurate. How would I then transpose measurements (with no reference) from an x-ray to paper? When those measurements need to be with .01??
I will admit this is simply MY experience. I know David Daye has taken x-rays before. I would be keenly interested to know whether he got accurate measurements or not. If he did...blessings on him! and Share the technique please!
Practice sets...Yes, I believe they are RELATIVELY inexpensive. The key word being, relative!
Hmm..what else..Oh..No, I don't believe I contradicted myself at all. However, you make an excellent point regarding the efficiency of the apprenticeship system.
Let's see..what else...OH! "Advice from the community" ..actually..there is QUITE a wealth of information, measurements, plans, techniques...available to those who ask. The community I spoke of was the pipe-making community. Most pipe-makers are more than happy to share their hard-won knowledge.
Proprietary info...Hmmm..I would beg to differ on this one. I DO* believe there is such a thing as "PROPRIETARY" information. Just because I can get the schematics for a Fender amplifier (or whatever..you name the product) does not mean that I can/should ethically and legally copy that design EXACTLY and sell it off as my very own. I believe that Quinn has been working on a new chanter design...and were some other maker to copy his chanter and design right away...I believe he would have a "problem" with that scenario. I know I would.
I beg an apology. I'm not actually against an apprenticeship system. I would be one of the first to sign up. In theory, and past practice, I am wholeheartedly in favor of apprenticeship systems. Throughout the centuries they have been an incredibly effective means of sharing skills and knowledge. I am, unfortuneately, a high school teacher...and too often I tend to act as the "devil's advocate" in order to get students to discuss and think things through...I'm afraid that's what I did here.
Excellent points however Dionys!!
You make some VERY good points, and on some I do stand corrected. Isn't this great? THIS is what a good discussion is all about. However...let me reply to a few of your points if I can..hmm..
It's such a LONG post I'll see if I can remember!!
As for an apprentice "signing a piece of paper"? Worthless. For example, If I decide to go sky-diving..they will have me sign a waiver. It's not worth the paper it's printed on. No REAL legal merit in a "waiver". But, on the flip-side...In a TRUE apprenticeship system, I think it would be unnecessary. Once the piping community learned of the "shady" dealings of a new pipe-maker...this person would be VERY quickly shunned and out of business.
X-Rays...HMM..I've seen X-Rays of chanters before, and found them to be absolutely worthless. (in my experience) They are impossible to get a clear measurement from. Blurry and inaccurate. How would I then transpose measurements (with no reference) from an x-ray to paper? When those measurements need to be with .01??
I will admit this is simply MY experience. I know David Daye has taken x-rays before. I would be keenly interested to know whether he got accurate measurements or not. If he did...blessings on him! and Share the technique please!
Practice sets...Yes, I believe they are RELATIVELY inexpensive. The key word being, relative!
Hmm..what else..Oh..No, I don't believe I contradicted myself at all. However, you make an excellent point regarding the efficiency of the apprenticeship system.
Let's see..what else...OH! "Advice from the community" ..actually..there is QUITE a wealth of information, measurements, plans, techniques...available to those who ask. The community I spoke of was the pipe-making community. Most pipe-makers are more than happy to share their hard-won knowledge.
Proprietary info...Hmmm..I would beg to differ on this one. I DO* believe there is such a thing as "PROPRIETARY" information. Just because I can get the schematics for a Fender amplifier (or whatever..you name the product) does not mean that I can/should ethically and legally copy that design EXACTLY and sell it off as my very own. I believe that Quinn has been working on a new chanter design...and were some other maker to copy his chanter and design right away...I believe he would have a "problem" with that scenario. I know I would.
I beg an apology. I'm not actually against an apprenticeship system. I would be one of the first to sign up. In theory, and past practice, I am wholeheartedly in favor of apprenticeship systems. Throughout the centuries they have been an incredibly effective means of sharing skills and knowledge. I am, unfortuneately, a high school teacher...and too often I tend to act as the "devil's advocate" in order to get students to discuss and think things through...I'm afraid that's what I did here.
Excellent points however Dionys!!
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Tony
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- Tell us something.: I used to play pipes about 20 years ago and suddenly abducted by aliens.
Not sure why... but it's 2022 and I'm mysteriously baack... - Location: Surlyville
I think the X-rays were to help detect indentations or intentional changes in the bore, such as... undercutting of the tone holes, or recesses to improve tuning. Agreed without accurate measurments the x-rays are of no value.CoyneLover wrote:
EXCERPT
X-Rays...HMM..I've seen X-Rays of chanters before, and found them to be absolutely worthless. (in my experience) They are impossible to get a clear measurement from. Blurry and inaccurate. How would I then transpose measurements (with no reference) from an x-ray to paper? When those measurements need to be with .01??
I will admit this is simply MY experience. I know David Daye has taken x-rays before. I would be keenly interested to know whether he got accurate measurements or not. If he did...blessings on him! and Share the technique please!
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Cayden
Tony is right there, x-rays will reveal where the makers has done something to the bore other than reaming it out. Offcourse then you come to the point Iwas initially referring to, you need the knowledge to know what has been done and why. Having measurements etc, is one thing, knowing enough about woodwind -acoustics to make them work is another.
For example, Geoff Wooff has laid down all the important things in his article in Ceol na hEirreann. It's all there, however applying it to an instrument is something else offcourse. And for that reason I don't think there's any danger the apprentices will make the original maker redundant.
For example, Geoff Wooff has laid down all the important things in his article in Ceol na hEirreann. It's all there, however applying it to an instrument is something else offcourse. And for that reason I don't think there's any danger the apprentices will make the original maker redundant.
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Cayden
Ceol na hEirreann is an annual jouranl (well intended annual)published by Na Piobairi Uilleann. The article I was referrign to was in vol 2. Vol 1 had an article about tempered tunes by Geoff that will be of interest and three has bits 7 pieces by Craig Fisher and Dave Daye. You may also want to check out articles in the Journal of the Sean Reid society. Vol 2 has just become available