French flute question - GAUTROT & Thibouville

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:35 pm

I have a semi-local shop with antique French flutes. I'm curious if anyone has any experience with flutes by Gautrot and/or Thibouville.

These are late 1800s flutes that have been restored by the local music shop and supposedly play well at A=440. The Gautrot is a 6 key, the Thibouville an 8 key - both supposedly in rosewood which I like.

I'm just curious how French flutes are for Irish music - better or worse than anonymous or named German flutes?

Thanks,

Eric

Sillydill · Post by **Sillydill** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:17 pm

Hey Eric,

I've been looking into french flutes a little my self. Looking for the elusive small holed flute with a Rudallesque tone. I believe, typically french flutes have an unlined head (often without a tuning slide) and small toneholes (just what I'm looking for).

Here is a website with a little information and some nice pictures: http://www.wichitaband.com/used.html They seem quite proud of their french flutes however. $$$

Don't know if it would help, but Vintage Instruments has a few french flutes (in project form) listed here: http://www.vintage-instruments.com/navigate/catidx4.htm

Your interest in French Flutes surprises me!

From a Prattenesque man such as yourself.

Best of Luck!
Let us know what happens!

Jordan

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:08 pm

Just a bit of a wild hare...trying the small holed side of life seemed like fun.

Eric

Whistlin'Dixie · Post by **Whistlin'Dixie** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:12 pm

Why not?

Eric, would they let you try the flutes? You could see if you like them, and maybe you could bring along a tuner.

The flutes at wichita band instruments look so nice, some are not at A=440, however, unless that's not a big deal to you.
For example, I have been enjoying playing along with CD's lately, so it's nice to match the tuning....

M

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:33 pm

Playing at modern pitch is important to me - I like playing in sessions and along with my wife who is a thoroughly in tune person.

While I've primarily played big bore, big hole flutes, Grey Larsen manages to get quite a good sound out of a smaller bore, smaller holed flute. I'm just not sure if the old french flutes are smaller than the older American flutes like Firth, Pond.

Eric

Chiffed · Post by **Chiffed** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:45 pm

I've got a 6-key french project flute coming any day. I'll let you know what it's like.

Matt_Paris · Post by **Matt_Paris** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:10 am

I have tried a lot of french flutes here in Paris and I really like them... Some are surprisingly powerful, but not all of them. I remember a Tulou that had a very strong, reedy tone.

They have in general a very odd feature: the F# is terribly flat, and difficult to play in tune. The F natural cross fingers very well, but the overall intonation is a bit strange.

I never played ITM on a german flute, because I find their sound to be in general too dull, so I can't compare, but a friend of mine played a french flute (with modified toneholes) with a very good sound.

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:58 am

I was hoping you'd chime in Matt since you're surrounded by these old French flutes.

Is it only the F# or the crossfingered F nat. that's really flat when you mention that the "overall intonation is a bit strange". The rest of the flute is usually well in tune?

I have no qualms enlarging a too small tone hole, but wouldn't want to mess with having to make on smaller.

Eric

Matt_Paris · Post by **Matt_Paris** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:34 am

Jayhawk wrote:I was hoping you'd chime in Matt since you're surrounded by these old French flutes.

Is it only the F# or the crossfingered F nat. that's really flat when you mention that the "overall intonation is a bit strange". The rest of the flute is usually well in tune?

I have no qualms enlarging a too small tone hole, but wouldn't want to mess with having to make on smaller.

Eric

Hello Eric,

the flutes I have seen have in general a good intonation, except the F#... And the "xxx xox" Fnat is perfect.

For example, if you look at a flute with the "système Tulou perfectionné", you'll see it has two keys for Fnat (like an english flute) plus one for the F#. So there is no F that is playable without a key or cross fingering. That's strange

(the second flute has this F#key)

In general they can be played almost chromatically without any key... The good ones are powerful anyway, the F# is manageable, and the thin head gives a beautiful tone. the bad ones, are well, bad

I tried a copy of a Tulou by Claire Soubeyran last year that was really amazing. Could be usable for ITM and classical as well.

BTW be careful if you plan to buy a french flute: some tend to have a slightly low pitch (around 435 Hz).

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:30 am

Matt - thanks for the information. I would never have imagined an F# key, but I'm guessing it fixes that flat F# problem!

The two flutes I was considering both supposedly play well at A=440, but I'd like to know just what "well" means and how far out the headjoint has to be pulled to achieve modern pitch.

This french flute fascination may come to naught, but I love learning about this stuff.

Eric

Unseen122 · Post by **Unseen122** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:33 pm

Eric, if you bought a cheap one you could always enlarge the F# hole to make a more in tune note.

le_koukou · Post by **le_koukou** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:37 pm

Hi Jayhawk,

I have a 5 key Gautrot Aine flute in ebony. It is a dream. Great player, very agile, superb intonation and nice tone. And it is playing at 440Hz tuning slide all the way closed, (wich is good for me by the way because this barrel is frozen solid...)

Gautrot was Tulou successor. Tulou was highly considered. Later on Couesnon was Gautrot successor. Louis Moyses, the great French Flautist played on a Couesnon (Boem system), prefering it over his Louis Lot... So it looks like they kept some know-how in house over the years.

Never tried a Thibouville. There were many makers named Thibouville, so it might be difficult to compare anyway unless you know wich Thibouville made the flute.

Personaly I prefer a D foot over a C foot for French flutes, because the French D foot is flared wich makes a lot for a strong D. And it is much more "French" I think. Everything is relative: a French flute will not have a bottom D as strong as a large bore flute. On the other hand it should allow you to go effortlessly high up in the 3rd octave.

You probably can guess wich one I would recomend to you. But actually comparing the flutes side by side is the best way to go, if that possible. Choose the one you like best. A maker name cannot be a full garanty for an old instrument as the bore shape can be adversely be affected by the years.

Enlarging the F# hole? It would probably destroy the intonation of many notes on the flute. It would be like pouring soda in a wine IMHO... it would not improve the wine, even a cheapo one.

PM me if you want and keep us updated.

Greetings from France!

Le Koukou

le_koukou · Post by **le_koukou** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:52 pm

Matt, I think that the key you are refering to is the Tulou key. It was used to create a "note sensible": to make the F# sharper (slighly out of tune) to allow expression in the music. On my Gautrot the F# is in tune if I take the precaution to keep the F and the D keys open.

The "Tulou prefectionee" is something different and refers to this kind of flute:

http://www.oldflutes.com/im/nonon.jpg

Very rare and expensive...

PS: how to insert pictures in the text?

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:40 pm

le_koukou wrote:Matt, I think that the key you are refering to is the Tulou key. It was used to create a "note sensible": to make the F# sharper (slighly out of tune) to allow expression in the music. On my Gautrot the F# is in tune if I take the precaution to keep the F and the D keys open.

The "Tulou prefectionee" is something different and refers to this kind of flute:

Very rare and expensive...

PS: how to insert pictures in the text?

like this

le_koukou · Post by **le_koukou** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:10 am

Thanks!