Union pipes and flat pitched pipes !!!

[rorybbellows]

There is an interesting concept put forward in an article in the sean reid journals that suggests that there should be three classifications of Irish pipes and they are concert pitched pipes , flat pitched pipes and union pipes .The concert pitched pipes are fairly straight forward but the separating of flat pipes I had never thought of before but I suppose if you think about it you can maybe see where you could look on them as two different types of pipes
.Flat pipes it says are made by pipemakers who are firstly concert pitch pipemakers who make flat pitched pipes as if they were concert pitch but just tuned down,where union pipes are made by makers who try to reproduce the sound made by the pipes that were made by the classic makers of the past.
Do you think it’s a valid point and if so who are the union pipe makers and who are the flat pitched pipemakers and the players of these pipes ?


RORY

[sean an piobaire]

As a guy who always played the "HORNS" (actualy soprano, alto. and tenor saxophone) in the ROCK BAND, I'm in favor of brevity, I would vote for the term "Irish Pipes" to refer to the Union Pipes and wide bore Uilleann Pipes as that "Anglo-Irish" Piper called them, in his "Tutor For The Irish Pipes" (circa 1830). The piper I'm refering to is, Dudlley Colclough, esq. (vide: O'Neill's Irish Minstrels and Musicians 1913). Squire Colclough (pronounced:Cole-Cluff), had the sense to realize that the Irish had taken the ball and ran off with it, as the Scots and English had either abandoned the "Pastoral" project or worse yet, never improved it. The Pastorals hung in there, for a while to be sure, and the Reids of Northumberland went on to make some Irish influenced sets, with an Irish style chanter, 3 drones and 2 regulators, set into the main stock in the usual manner. It can be argued that the Gaelic language was losing ground in the early 19th century, at the time of Irish Pipe inovation ( 5 regulator sets, et al) and that in order to reclaim that sense of heritage, the term Uilleann Pipes, which is in itself, a blend of both Gaelic and English, should be retained. I have no problem with that either!
The news, friends, is that most people don't care how many angels are dancing on that pin-head you have in your pocket. When somebody asks "What is that thing in your lap" you can be smart and clever, always winning friends and influencing people, or for the sake of education, you can just say "It's the Irish Pipes!" S.F.

[Elmek]

If as we are led to believe the Taylors 'invented' the wide bore concert set then should we not be classifying these as American Union Pipes as opposed to the narrower bored Irish Union Pipes.

[Gabriel]

When I see a set of Union Pipes, I really can't get the point why they should be different from Uilleann Pipes - same general style, same techniques. So I think, Uilleann Pipes = Union Pipes, same language difference like the cornemuse flamande and the Schäferpfeife and the flemish bagpipe: same instruments, different names.

If as we are led to believe the Taylors 'invented' the wide bore concert set then should we not be classifying these as American Union Pipes as opposed to the narrower bored Irish Union Pipes.

Sounds reasonable IMHO.

I second Elmek, the Pipes should be named American/Irish Union/Uilleann Pipes, classifying the kind of bore (and disregarding key since there are irish sets in D, C#, Bb and whatever). So an irish set would be generally a "flat" set (that name doesn't really fit since D, C and B are not flat...), or better, a narrow-bore set tuned to whatever, and an american set would be generally a "concert" set, or a wide-bore set tuned to whatever.

To justify: There were different oboe models usual in europe, the german oboe, french conservatory oboe and the wiener (vienna) oboe. All are oboes, but with different bores and slightly variant key systems. But they're still oboes.

[Uilliam]

Taylors modified then came up with a new design on Irish Pipes.Taylor Bros were frae Ireland who happened to end up in America.Taylor bros made pipes in Ireland afore they went aff to America.Why on earth should we call them American Pipes? There is nothing remotely American about them at all..the concert halls that were supposedly the catalyst for the louder wider bore existed over here at exactly the same time as in America and exactly the same problems were being encountered. In America at the time of their appearance they were referred to as Irish Pipes !!!
American /Irish Pipes what next??
Uilliam

[Joseph E. Smith]

American /Irish Pipes what next??
Uilliam

... uh, MacDonalds hamburgers are Scot/Yankee cuisine?

[billh]

American/Irish is confusing, since wide-bore sets have certainly been made in Ireland, and in recent years narrow bore sets have been made in America. I don't think the Vienna/French oboe parallel is a good one, really.

This is why the term "union" makes sense to distinguish from "uilleann" - the term uilleann appears to have made its first appearance in the 20th century[1] and was first widely used to describe the 'modern' wider-bored 20th century instruments. "wide bore" versus "narrow bore" is a helpful distinction but still fails to account for the modern flat pitched instruments whose bores are narrower than Rowsome-style concert pitch but still don't match the playing characteristics of their 19th century predecessors, due to wider bore, larger toneholes, or other factors.

What the Sean Reid Society's use of the term "union pipes" was intended to do was provide a consistent, simple way of referring to "pipes modelled after the classic 19th century instruments", prior to the innovations of the Taylor brothers which were imported back into Ireland from America in the early 20th century. Sadly, many (most?) pipers today have never even seen, let alone played, a set of "union pipes".

Bill

[1] - the term uilleann seems to have been invented or appropriated by Grattan Flood in "The Story of the Bagpipe", to try and link the Irish pipes to the old Gaelic tradition, and because lots of people didn't like the sound of the word "Union", particularly at the time Flood was writing

[emer]

The reality is that if you used the description "Union Pipes" to the vast majority of people in Ireland - both players and those familiar with the instrument - they would look blankly at you.
The vernacular is 'the pipes' or 'concert set/pipes/pitch' or 'flat set/pipes/pitch' and everbody knows immediately what you are talking about.
In general terms, the niceties of narrow bore or wide bore in flat sets is just that - a bore. Even worse, an academic bore.
Trying to reverse a century long trend is the equivalent of trying to disappear up one's own ???

[billh]

The reality is that if you used the description "Union Pipes" to the vast majority of people in Ireland - both players and those familiar with the instrument - they would look blankly at you.
The vernacular is 'the pipes' or 'concert set/pipes/pitch' or 'flat set/pipes/pitch' and everbody knows immediately what you are talking about.
In general terms, the niceties of narrow bore or wide bore in flat sets is just that - a bore. Even worse, an academic bore.
Trying to reverse a century long trend is the equivalent of trying to disappear up one's own ???

But the trend has already reversed, in that "union pipes" have been making a big revival in the past 10 to 15 years. Maybe not by that name, but then again the word "uilleann" would have brought blank stares not so many decades ago. "Irish pipes" is the best generic term, probably, since that term has been in continuous use for at least 200 years.

People other than pipers rarely know what "concert pitch" versus "flat pitch" means for pipes anyway - it's a specialized usage of those terms. Terminology evolves all the time, and it makes sense to me to consciously promote terminology that fits best.

Bill

[emer]

With all due respects, Bill, 'Union pipes' as a description is unknown outside a narrow band (pathetic pun NOT intended) of people who have an academic interest in terminology, and any revival is limited strictly to that narrow band.
The attempts at redefining the terminology smacks dangerously of revisionism to me - to be avoided at all costs.

[billh]

With all due respects, Bill, 'Union pipes' as a description is unknown outside a narrow band (pathetic pun NOT intended) of people who have an academic interest in terminology, and any revival is limited strictly to that narrow band.
The attempts at redefining the terminology smacks dangerously of revisionism to me - to be avoided at all costs.

Revisionism is when you reinterpret the past to suit your present goals, and I agree that it should be avoided. Reinterpretation itself, however, is healthy and important to keeping history alive.

Revisionism is IMO what Grattan Flood was doing when he re-christened the Union/Irish pipes "Uilleann" (or "Uileann") for the purposes of tying them more closely to the Gaelic revival and imbuing them with an "ancient gaelic" association. Maybe he really believed his own rhetoric, but it was still erroneous (even Francis O'Neill pointed this out) As such, going back to the pre-Flood terminology would help undo an old error, of the revisionist sort.

I agree that "union" may sound a little stodgy in some contexts, but we're speaking among specialists already, here; for the general public "Irish pipes" is probably even more accessible than uilleann. "Flat pipes" means nothing to the general public either. The discussion started out over what we, the specialists and learners, choose to call a specific category of instruments, amongst ourselves, and therefore we are free to choose the names which create the most meaningful categorization.

Bill

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

...the concert halls that were supposedly the catalyst for the louder wider bore existed over here at exactly the same time as in America and exactly the same problems were being encountered.

What's your source for that? I've read about street players taking to the concert pipes for the extra volume but it was Rowsome etc. sets they used - long after the Taylors, they emigrated in 1872 and O'Neill wrote that they developed the wide bore specifically for American concert halls, although I've also come across (from Quinn, in the SRS journals?) an assertion that they made wide bore instruments before emigrating.
O'Neill wrote of pipers in Ireland lacking in volume to be heard in halls but he was comparing their volume with what he'd heard across the sea. The concerts pre-famine that I've read about were intimate parlour type affairs. If the pipers thought their instruments were deficient in volume they didn't harangue the pipemakers into beefing them up - although again people say Egan pipes are a little more powerful than Coyne, Kenna, etc.
I wouldn't underestimate people's ability to take whole-heartedly to terminology as if they've been using it all their lives. Do a search on this forum for "Pratten" or "Rudall" or "Nicholson" and you'll see what I mean...

[billh]

Kevin:

The infamous Dance Hall Act (1935) would probably have created similar pressures, since it effectively banned house dances. But that came along two generations after the Taylors active period (1870 - 1890).

Bill

[tommykleen]

Just how many flat sets/chanters of Taylor pipes are there on record?

Just curious.

t

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

1935? That was probably around the time that Leo Rowsome didn't have a cent to his name, prayed, and £5 showed up in the mail...was there rudimentary amplification for those dance halls from the beginning? Those bands very rarely had pipers in the ranks though. Maybe in Clare or Dublin. Peter will know what was what in Clare in that circumstance.
I've a copy of the Tulla Ceili Band's first LP, the liner notes mention Willie C. as a former member and I was a bit disappointed that he couldn't be heard on it! Not that you could tell much if he had...actually I have recordings of the Sean Seery Ceili Band and I can't tell if Sean's playing the pipes on that either.
Thomas Johnson ("Steampacket" on this forum) has a website with a checklist of sorts, of Taylor pipes. Do you mean flat sets by the Taylors? There's the odd C# chanter, I've heard about one set that looks to be a C# set in toto.