violin & whistle duet

[greg]

my wife is learing the violin and i've started the whistle we would like to play one of the slow airs together [maybe cailin deas cruite na mbo] but with two melody instruments who plays what?if anyone of you knowledgeable folk could enlighten me i would be gratefull

[Bill Reeder]

Are you using a multi-part arrangement? It won't matter what parts your individual instruments play, really. Playing the melody in unison is very appropriate and that's a good place to start if you're both new to the music and the instruments. When you're comfortable with unison playing then explore the harmony parts and try switching back and forth. My wife and I used to do this when I was playing Northumbrian smallpipes on a regular basis. The Northumbrian pipers had a nice little duet book that was fun to mess around with. Have fun!

[IDAwHOa]

I am no expert, but isn't Irish music is typically played in unison? Not that it CAN'T be played in parts if available. I have not seen much of this though.

Renee and I do lots of harmony music though and have lots of fun (once she does it MY way ). Mostly we play duets with our church music but we are trying to branch out into other genre's too.

[mvhplank]

Playing in unison is fine, but it will quickly highlight any intonation problems.

Here's something I learned in a music ensemble workshop: If your sheet music has guitar chords indicated, one of you could try swapping into "backup" mode, and taking turns playing backup and melody. Play the note of the chord (e.g., a G note for either G major or G minor), either as the "dreaded drone" of long tones (not so bad if not over-done) or in rhythm. The violin has the advantage of adding a double-stop.

I can't improvise harmonies with any regularity or competency, but I can improvise backup by playing the chord note or by playing just the note shown on the downbeat.

Most important--have fun and don't be afraid to fail! That's how you learn what works.

M

[Cayden]

Some would make a strong case for airs being solo pieces (and I would tend to agree) and irish music being essentially a melodic music (and I'd agree again). That doesn't really mean it can't be done to good effect, groups like the Bowhouse Quintet and the West Ocean String Quartette have doen some interesting experimenting merging classical elements with the traditional material without unduly upsetting the old forms. Tony Mcmahon playing airs backed up by Kronos was interesting too for that matter. As someone said: if he ever starts ging out about people playing we can tell him 'we heard you tear the arse off Port na bPucai with the Kronos quatette'. It's worth listening to unorthodox approaches and finding some understanding of the material before setting out.

[Darwin]

Here's something I learned in a music ensemble workshop: If your sheet music has guitar chords indicated, one of you could try swapping into "backup" mode, and taking turns playing backup and melody. Play the note of the chord (e.g., a G note for either G major or G minor), either as the "dreaded drone" of long tones (not so bad if not over-done) or in rhythm. The violin has the advantage of adding a double-stop.

On what I think is their first album (Shanachie 78002), Solas does something similar on parts of "Crested Hens" and "Sliabh Geal gCua Na Féile". (The latter is in E, just in case you want to get the CD and try to play along.) On both of these, the guitar plays mostly arpeggios, which is something else you could do if you have the chords. One instrument could play the melody and the other arpeggiated chords. (I tend to think that arpeggios are a bit easier on the fiddle than on the whistle.)

One small thing to keep in mind is that "slow air" may have a more precise meaning (i.e., the instrumental rendering of sean nos-style singing) to some here, which can lead to talking at cross purposes.

Many slow tunes are not technically slow airs in this sense. For one thing, many have English words associated with them, while others may have no words at all. So, there's little point in trying to apply the narrower standard to a recently composed instrumental number like "Lament for Frankie", even though it may sound traditional to those of us who don't know any better. The same should go for English-language songs like "I Wonder What's Keeping My True Love Tonight". (Both of these examples are from that same Solas album.)

On this same point, it's not clear to me how to find out whether a particular song that has English words has an older Gaelic version, for example: "The Dear Irish Boy" and "Down By the Sally Gardens".

Finally, if you're just playing for yourself, then the only standard is your own. That's my approach to Irish material on the whistle. On the other hand, when I play guitar at a Bluegrass jam or performance, I try to keep it appropriate to the other players or to the audience.

[tim-hart]

I particuarly enjoy it when I'm leading a tune and the fiddle does some nice chordal droning under me for a while, then comes in and adopts more of the melody. The two instruments can work beautifully together. The fiddle gives a lovely pad under me and then we build dynamically as he comes up on the melody and perhaps some harmonies.

[JohnPalmer]

Meanwhile...

Playing in unison would be very practical for developing intonation. And it would not bother anyone to hear you both play the same melody, together. People do it all the time. And when you're good at it, that's when you will answer your own question; you'll know just what to do.

It's kinda like being married...

JP

[ninjaaron]

my wife is learing the violin and i've started the whistle we would like to play one of the slow airs together [maybe cailin deas cruite na mbo] but with two melody instruments who plays what?if anyone of you knowledgeable folk could enlighten me i would be gratefull

This is my thing. This stuff right here. compostion and improvised harmony parts. I don't know crap about irish music or whistles, but this kind of stuff is my background.

If you are both new to music, unison is the best bet. However this is pretty dull and is probably inappropriate for airs.

As some have said, if you have music with chords, playing the the note that is named after the chord will sound quite nice under the melody. The next step up from that would be doing what I would call "standard single not accompanyment", very similar to the kind of thinkgs a bassist would play. You play the chord note, and then a beat or so before the change you "walk" up or down the scale to the next chord note. It doesn't have to be all the consecutive notes between it could be just two, or even one, but it is general practice to make the last note before the actual chord change be right next to the note your aiming for.

I hope that makes sense.

The next step from that would be not neccisarily going to the root note of the next chord, but to some other note in the chord. This is usually what a cellos do when they are put in a pop song. They play long slow ascending and descending lines made up of consecutive chord tones, with brief "outside" passing tones. It can be very very cool sounding. This would probably be the most appropriate for accopanyment of an air. Learning to improvise in this way takes work, but it is very rewarding. You could write it out before hand and learn it that way for starters. With time it will come more naturally.

You could also, eventually ditch the chords and just play whatever backup lines come to you in the moment. This sounds pretty awful at first, but gets easier.

The above stuff is more modern, probalby more 'folk' style accopanyment. I'm pretty sure I've heard the Cheiftians do stuff like this, but I've never really paid attetion to structure when I listened to them.

If you want a more classical/baroque type sound, below are some other ideas...

you could also consider the use of arppegios. that is, playing all the notes in the chord seperatly under the melody.

An ostinato would also give a very interesting sound in some cases. That means that you would play the same melodic figure over and over again, usually one that outlines the root chord. you could also have an ostinato that follows th chord changes, so you use the same pattern, but move it up and down the scale to outline what ever chord you are on.

And then there is the world of counter point this is where you sit down before hand and write a complemetary melody and weaves around the first. I love this kind of music, but it takes time and some degree of knowledge to make it work. I could outline some basics for you if you like, but if your not really interested, I'll save the typing. It's a massive topic, and even scratching the surface would take a considerable amount of typing.

[Cynth]

unison is the best bet. However this is pretty dull and is probably inappropriate for airs.

Unison playing, or actualy solo playing, for Irish airs would be the traditional approach, so that wouldn't be inappropriate at all. The ideas you have sound good. I wish people would try to do something like your suggestions the with guitar when they are accompanying----I am so tired of just hearing these guitar chords banging away too loudly in the so-called background. This sort of single note accompaniment seems much more appropriate to Irish music---not trying to say everyone should do it that way, just what I like---than whanging chords.

[SteveK]

> I wish people would try to do something like your suggestions the with guitar when they are accompanying----I am so tired of just hearing these guitar chords banging away too loudly in the so-called background. This sort of single note accompaniment seems much more appropriate to Irish music---not trying to say everyone should do it that way, just what I like---than whanging chords.

A lot of people would agree with you. Particularly bouzouki players like Alec Finn and some others. They do a lot of contrapuntal-type backup, sometimes improvising countermelodies. I'm totally stuck trying to remember this one bouzouki player's name but he's great at improvised contrupuntal backup. Also Dennis Cahill does some kind of sparse contrapuntal backup. Chris Smith who is a multi-instrumentalist has an article on improvising counterpuntal backup at this address http://www.geocities.com/coyotebanjo/instruction/

It's the article called impcontr about 9 or 10 articles down the page. There's other good stuff there on learning tunes, having sessions, etc.

[missy]

I'm going to answer strictly from a duet playing standpoint - not ITM or whistle, etc.

Since you are playing 2 different instruments, you can still play exactly the same notes - you still have the 2 different voices that will blend. However, as someone already mentioned, you really need to be right on with your timing and intonation doing this.
Playing in 2 different octaves, but playing the same notes, is an easy way to blend. My husband plays the "regular" dulcimer while I play bass almost exclusively. So. even if we don't have parts worked out for a song, we still sound more full playing only melody.
Chords have already been mentioned, but I'll just bring up knowing the notes of a chord so you can add all of those, especially things like what makes a chord a seventh, etc. Also adding minor chord "walks" in between switching major chords can be quite effective. And, as mentioned, arpeggio all the notes of a chord.

A totally different approach is for each instrument to actually be playing the melody from 2 different songs - but ones that fit together in their chord patterns and timing. As long as you aren't ornamenting things to death, this can actually sound quite good.

Take a listen to some of the MP3s on our website to hear what we've done come up with "parts" on songs. "Jenny Plucked Pears" is one where Tom is playing the melody line, and I'm flatpicking the chord background exclusively.

[ninjaaron]

I wish people would try to do something like your suggestions the with guitar when they are accompanying----I am so tired of just hearing these guitar chords banging away too loudly in the so-called background. This sort of single note accompaniment seems much more appropriate to Irish music---not trying to say everyone should do it that way, just what I like---than whanging chords.

Interesting, I wish I could make it out to sessions. perhaps one day we'll meet and get the chance.

Though, I propably wouldn't do use quite this approach unless I brought my electric, which probably would not be appreciated by folks at most session. On my classical guitar I'd go for more of an arppegioish harpish type line thing. I think it's probably the most fitting to the music, being that Harp is native to the music, and guitar is really an imposter. I might bang some chords on the faster songs...

And then their are lines harmony lines in octaves... never really tried that in ITM on the guitar (I do it a lot in my jazz and pop playing... hmmm).

I think the stuff I described in the previous post would be better if I packed along the cello. Mwahahaha!

[Cynth]

ninjaaron, I can just barely play a note on the whistle---so we won't be meeting at a session in this lifetime I don't think . I'm thinking more of recordings where my personal taste finds chord whanging very annoying. Clearly many people must like it because it is so common.

I think you are right to assume that electric guitar might not go over too well with some sessions . I've heard that you should check with someone first if you want to play a "strange" instrument.

It sounds like you would be interested in some of the groups Peter Laban mentions above. I heard the Kronos Quartet, not playing what Peter is describing, quite a number of years ago. As musicians I don't think you could get any better. What they play is often difficult listening for me though.