Pakistani Uilleann Pipe. The good and the bad.

Mugs Burtchaell · Post by **Mugs Burtchaell** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:45 pm

Hello,

Just curious how many folks have Paksitani Uilleann pipe parts or sets? Wondering if anyone that owns or that has experience with Pakistani Uilleann Pipes might like to share some opinions of the alterations and setup process in actually getting them to play. Successful or not. Any comments appreciated, bad included with good.

It would be great to see some pictures of your pipes and share the details of adjustments and reeds.

It would be interesting to determine how many different types are available and draw comparisons. Take measurement and just plain compile data. We are building a webpage that we could colaborate useful information and serve as a guide for anyone interested in the Pakistani pipes.

Here's the website which is under construction:
http://homepage.mac.com/burtchaell/PhotoAlbum3.html

Our kind regards!
Steve Burtchaell
New Orleans, LA

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PJ · Post by PJ » Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:30 pm

Our beloved moderator, Joseph Smith, bought a set of Pakistani pipes. I believe he may still play the drones of that set. I suggest you PM him.

Antaine is another who has some experience with Pakistani pipes. I've not seen him post recently, though. Here's one of the main threads on rebuilding Pakistani pipes:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

As you'll see, the final verdict was far from clear.

BTW, you say "we" a couple of times in your post. Out of curiosity, how many of you are involved in the project to rebuild the Pakistani set you bought?

John Deere · Post by **John Deere** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:28 pm

I wouldn't bother.
Its a $600 full set when the cheapest set from a maker that knows what they're doing is at least $5000. That alone says something.
A student of mine has a chanter and it was very hard to reed and will never be properly in tune.
The folks in Pakistan that make these thing are quite good craftsmen. The workmanship is very good. But the measurements are arseways and the boys are not instrument makers let alone pipemakers. So they dont know how to tune a thing never mind adjust a bore.
Forget it. They may be good for unblocking the jacks.
Useless.
JD

Maybe the bellows are ok.

Edited coz i forgot about the bellows.
Plus I just saw the regulators. The angles of the keys are a bit ganky too. You'd save a bit of money but you'd only be playing on your own coz you'd never get them in tune with themselves.

John Deere · Post by **John Deere** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:52 pm

Just looked through the rest of you site and I can confirm that Arie De Keyser did NOT make those pipes and that they are in fact Pakistani.
Waltons HAVE sold Pakistani pipes for the shop on Nth. Fredrick St. in Dublin.
Not on a regular basis but they did sell the samples that were sent to the shop.
In fact a piper friend on mine Cormac Cannon bought a full set for E200 about 3ish years ago from Waltons.
Arie is also a very good flute maker and Mick O'Brien has one of his flutes and plays it all the time.

JD

ausdag · Post by **ausdag** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:03 am

One comment on your website - the photos must be very large files as they take waaay tooooo long to download. No more than 100kb each is more than sufficient or shot at 150dpi is all you need.

Cheers,

DavidG

sean an piobaire · Post by **sean an piobaire** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:49 am

Guys I hate to say it but I got a good look at two different sets of Pakistani Uilleann Pipes, the ones that came through Lark-in the-Morning and the ones that come through a complicated route that went like this: Made in Pakistan, goes to Fairfield, Iowa, Tim Britton reams the chanter to his specs, puts on the chanter reed, goes to Mid-East Music, in Florida, then sold to The Harp and Dragon Shop, in up-state New York, and finaly sold to a young piper in Redding California...who was a GHB piper desperate to play the Irish pipes...Number 1. Lark sets: bad chanter, bad regs, bad mainstock, Drones possible,bad bag, bad bellows. I begged the new owner of Lark NOT to sell these any more, but maybe they're using up the stock on hand....Number 2. This was a Half set, Bag OK, Bellows OK, Drones...could only get the baritone drone going....Chanter. It had the Tim Britton sliding staple tube epoxyed into the reed seat, and the no collar reed head, I tried to copy it, but I'm a failure at imitating Tim's reeds, so I rolled a Rowsome staple and Rowsome reed head, and it almost played in tune and went up to high D (3rd octave D, which is a good test for the right SIZE of reed). I spent HOURS on and it was Hard to REED! Being close but "no Cigar" is not a lot of comfort. I saw Tim at the St. Louis Tionol, and met his partner in pipemaking and I forgot to ask him if he was still doing the import bit, but I am under the impression that Britton Pipes are a stateside product these days. Also like to add that the plastic chanter reed made by the folks in England(Music Servives Ltd.?) for their mouthblown UP practice chanter (the one with the rubber tube going into the chanter top), played better in the Pakistani practice sets (just bag bellows and chanter)than the reed(s) that come with it, that are also made in Pakistan.Sorry for anyone that has one of these pipes! Sean Folsom

WannabePiper · Post by **WannabePiper** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:14 am

Has anyone actually owned a Brittonized P-chanter and found it to be more unreedable or out of tune than a "real" chanter? Right on this board I've heard of many "real" chanters that have gross reeding troubles and require extensive re-working, rushing, etc. as well.

Jim McGuire · Post by **Jim McGuire** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:44 am

THE GOOD: they are inexpensive.
THE BAD: they are exported.

Mugs Burtchaell · Post by **Mugs Burtchaell** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:56 am

Just wanted to thank everyone for contributions and replys both under this topic and private meesages.

If anyone has a set of P-pipes and would like to contribute pictures and some first hand experience of the matter, please do so. Any measurements, pictures of reeds, etc. We will be happy to add it to our website as well.

We are trying to compile constructive information for general reference about these type pipes.

Steve and Mugs Burtchaell

DMQuinn · Post by **DMQuinn** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:42 am

You see, what they need over there in Sialkot is someone who knows how to make pipes, can actually play them, and who speaks fluent Urdu. I suppose that’s asking a lot, though, isn’t it?

sean an piobaire · Post by **sean an piobaire** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:12 pm

Further Explanation about my experience of Pakistani Bagpipes in general, and Uilleann Pipes in particular: I started seeing the GHBs that were made in Pakistan in the early 1970s and of the 2 sets I saw, they had good quality chanters and drones, I didn't see the oridginal bags, but in 1993 I got a gift of one of these chanters from the 1960s, by John Rosenburger, who was a Pipe Major of one of the Scots bands in the San Diego, California. I put it together with a set of drones also made in Pakistan, for my son to play (and he still has it) John was using his Pakistani chanters as massed chanters for the pipe band and being all made by the same maker, could be reeded and tuned together, for a good sound for the band. Another was a chance meeting with a street piper, Saxon Roe, who was playing on Telegraph Avenue, in Berkeley, California, summer of 1974, his pipes made in Pakistan, were supplied to him by a high school in Sacremento,California, where in addition to a brass marching band, they also had a Pipe band. This set was so low, around A=440, that my 1971 R.G. Hardie (Glasgow) set couldn't tune down to it, my Hardie being a B flat instrument. I asked Saxon if I could play his pipes, and he assented. I tuned the Drones and immediately a large crowd gathered, this was my 1st experience with low A chanters on GHBs, and I became an advocate of this tonality, so much more "mellow", and with rich harmonics, etc. Later I purchased a Old Scots Chanter made by J. Center, in the late 1890s, and a Robertson, made circa 1920s. and got some reed designs going to play these old chanters. which you can hear the results of this on my GHB track on the Bagpipes of the World CD. I mention this as a explanation of the low pitch chanter of Saxon Roe, that the gossip for years, in the Scots piping community,was that some time in the 1880s, a Scots piper in India(Pakistan didn't exist till 1947-48) who needed a repair on his pipes, and had a new part made by a local wood worker, this is the start, supposedly, of the manufacture of the BIN BAJA, of the native pipes of India, the BIN is the snake charmer reed pipe, and there were bagpipes such as the MOSHAQ, and SHRUTI (now an accordion drone for the Bansuri flute) shawms such as the SHANAI and the NAGASWARAM. All of these instruments are reeded wind instruments with the sound we associate with Bagpipes here in the West. Reis Flora, an Aussie Oboe player, in his doctoral thesis "AEROPHONES OF THE SUB-CONTINENT" posits an Indian origin for all our reed pipes, going back thousands of years. GHBs of a lower quality started appearing around 1974, there was a big band instrument music store in Santa Monica, California, that had really cheap sets made in Pakistan, and displayed in umbrella stands all over the store. This is the crux of the need to buy low and sell high, the importers DID NOT want to pay for the good stuff, and drove down the price they were willing to pay the Pakistani makers (SKIALOT, a city in Pakistan, pronouned "Shall-Cot") and turning over these sets, priced as low as $30 USD, for an average price of $149-250 USD, you can see them on Ebay, anytime. Now on to the Irish pipes...(about time you'd say?!) An American Importer who will remain an open secret (Like DeepThroat) started the ball rolling in the 1990s here in the USA. I started seeing people that had bought these UP sets and wanted them to work, even more than the 2 people that I mentioned in the the previous post here. At first I made cane chanter reeds and had plugged and redrilled the inlet hole in the bellows for a proper position on the the board, remanufactured the outlet tube on the bottom bellows board going to the blowpipe, seasoning the bag, rewrapping the tenons with thread, instead of the hemp, etc. For all of this I had to charge $100 USD, and this was a practice set which the owner had payed $450 USD. Many more came until I said enough, I'm not going to touch this stuff any more. The Burtchaells who stared this thread, have emailed me about this subject and I wish that the ENTIRE TEXT of these two postings be reproduced, by way of an accurate quote, YOU WERE RIPPED OFF! and you don't have to purchase PAKISTANI UILLEANN PIPES to achieve the same level of being ROOKED, BURNED and BAMBOOZLED! There are plenty of bad sets from long ago(19th century), to within the last 30 years, that are made in the ,USA,IRELAND,GREAT BRITTAIN,and elsewhere. The NPU in Dublin, in their list of makers, circa 1993, had the Latin phrase CAVEAT EMPTOR (buyer beware) They did not at that time, wish to "rate" or VET makers, as the club did not want to discourage any body from making Irish Pipes. The pipes have been made in a cottage industry setting for all the years that they have been in existence, perhaps somebody CAN turn them out in a factory, with all the new technology, and sell them for less than the cost of a good kazoo, but I hope that these forums can warn people away from the bad sets. Buyers have to inform themselves, and $600 USD is not a "impulse" buying price.
So Steve and Mugs. You can sell it honestly as a never to be played "WALL HANGING" decoration, and it's important to have a VELVET BAG COVER on it with nice contrasting trim. A VELVET BAG COVER adds at least $100 USD to the price of any bagpipe, good,bad or indifferent, so I'm not being sarcastic. I regret having to bow out of this discussion as the mere mention of it, is distressing to me, I am not a racist, against all things Pakistani, I love the hard working people that they are, and I love their FOOD! Perhaps someday SOON they can be PAID WELL for their labors, and with that PAY and a great amount of RESEARCH, put out a good set of Irish Pipes. SEAN FOLSOM

Mugs Burtchaell · Post by **Mugs Burtchaell** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:15 pm

Sean,

I'll drink to that (7:30 central time sharp if anyone wants to join me).
Well said sir.

Steve Burtchaell

sean an piobaire · Post by **sean an piobaire** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:44 pm

I'm breaking my pledge not to discuss this subject but please forgive the typographical, syntax, and spelling errors, in the post above. I didn't spell SIALKOT,right. It's the main town of musical instrument manufacture in Pakistan. I remember that the Imperial Musical Instrument Company in Sialkot, had a catalogue that listed all of the Band instruments Trumpets, Tubas, Saxes, Clarinets, and etc. as well as GHB style BAGPIPES (There's also Sinaulah and Halifax companies). As David Quinn does speak Urdu, and has studied Sanskrit for a degree, AND he has the knowledge on how to make a good set of pipes,has lived in foreign parts.... so how about it David? are you going into a partnership? You are the only man on Earth that can do all that! Sean Folsom

DMQuinn · Post by **DMQuinn** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:05 pm

I'm already in a partnership, so I don't think I'll be pulling out to go to Pakistan. Still, I'm open to offers. The time I spent in Lahore was probably the very happiest period of my life, c. 1972-73. The climate has changed since then, however, and I doubt if there's enough money in the game to make it worth the risk.

sean an piobaire · Post by **sean an piobaire** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:08 pm

Yes David, I was just drawing you out, from a sudden desire to have you elaborate on your post above. Perhaps in a world where we're not at war with 62 countries around the world, more partners could be forthcoming. Sean