Posting Policies: Civility

Post by **Dale** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:13 pm

Due to a recent flurry of controversy about the role of moderation on these forums, it occurs to me that it might be helpful to make as explicit as possible what has been a long-standing practice on this board. The owner(s) and moderators of this board insist that those who post do so with reasonably good manners, consideration of the feelings of others, and maintenance of civility. This includes refraining from personal attacks and unnecessariliy harsh language. Disagreement may certainly be expressed, but good manners are required.

From time-to-time, a member of the board will complain that the forum moderators do not allow negative opinions to be expressed here. This would include negative reviews of musical instruments, recordings, performances, etc. It is true that we ask people to refrain from attack. It is NOT true that this makes it impossible, or even difficult, to express a negative opinion. In order to illustrate this, I have used the following example (to the irritation of many):

...(Some maintain) they can't say negative or critical things on the board. I say again: This is not the case. At the risk of being patronizing, which is not my intention, let me demonstrate (again).

"I do not like Pepsi. It think the bubbles are disagreeable and their is a slightly sharp sensation at the back of one's palate. I prefer the taste of Diet Coke, and this is what I encourage my friends to buy."

vs.

"Pepsi is complete crap, clearly made by drunkards and con men. Anyone who would pay 75 cents for a can of it would have to be a fool. And anyone who would try to sell the crap on ebay is either a thief or is trying to unload a vile elixer that no one in their right mind would want."

First example: Ok
Second: Not Ok.

A related issue is treatment of the less well-informed or experienced visitors. "Newbies" and others. I am absolutely committed to the Chiff & Fipple forums being welcoming to newcomers. This stands in opposition to the Internet tradition of ignoring or roughing-up newbies. Accordingly, we ask people to be nice to newbies, to suffer their questions with patience. It is perfectly ok to ask newbies to use the forum's SEARCH features to find answers to common questions, but please remember that newcomers may need to have the search functions called to their attention and may need some help in using them.

As moderators, we reserve the right to edit and delete posts and to ban those who don't respect these simple rules.

Thanks!

rama · Post by **rama** » Fri May 13, 2005 6:19 pm

would it be more appropriate to have this notice placed in the announcement thread as it will be included in the official policy so we don't have to search everywhere for bits and pieces of the policy? in other words, it leaves me wondering what else am i missing? do i have to search eslewhere, is ther any more pieces that are not in the official announcement. inquiring minds want to know!
am i responsible for not knowing something that isn't announced? whose at fault then? i certainly hope no one has been held accountable for something that should have been properly announced in the first place!

these questions and comments might help, if not then please disregard.

Post by **Dale** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:25 pm

rama wrote: these questions and comments might help, if not then please disregard.

Thanks for providing that option.

rama · Post by **rama** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:05 pm

being civil, are we dale? or just a wise ass?

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:05 pm

Post by **Dale** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:32 pm

rama wrote:being civil, are we dale? or just a wise ass?

These aren't mutually exclusive. I guess I'm being both.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:41 pm

I believe that a lot of what constitues being "harsh" or "uncivil" (excluding name calling and other outright stuff like that) goes back to cultural differences.

On this forum we have members from dozens of countries all over the world, many different faiths, many different colors, and many different outlooks on life, and sometimes a word or phrase or even a way of saying things is not meant to be offensive or brash at all but is perceived that way nonetheless.

I know that I have been told a couple times things I said were quite offensive and I didn't even know it because that wasn't how I meant it. I think this happens a lot around here and we often just assume that it was meant in the worst possible way when in fact it probably wasn't.

Post by **Dale** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:45 pm

Cranberry wrote:I believe that a lot of what constitues being "harsh" or "uncivil" (excluding name calling and other outright stuff like that) goes back to cultural differences.

I think that's true and I think that's why such a tiny minority of posts are edited and deleted and why so rarely is anyone banned.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:48 pm

DaleWisely wrote:
Cranberry wrote:I believe that a lot of what constitues being "harsh" or "uncivil" (excluding name calling and other outright stuff like that) goes back to cultural differences.

I think that's true and I think that's why such a tiny minority of posts are edited and deleted and why so rarely is anyone banned.

Can moderators be banned?

Post by **Dale** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:49 pm

Cranberry wrote:
DaleWisely wrote:
Cranberry wrote:I believe that a lot of what constitues being "harsh" or "uncivil" (excluding name calling and other outright stuff like that) goes back to cultural differences.

I think that's true and I think that's why such a tiny minority of posts are edited and deleted and why so rarely is anyone banned.
Can moderators be banned?

Yes. Don't make me beg.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:51 pm

DaleWisely wrote:
Cranberry wrote:
DaleWisely wrote: I think that's true and I think that's why such a tiny minority of posts are edited and deleted and why so rarely is anyone banned.
Can moderators be banned?
Yes. Don't make me beg.

Good. I've never liked Alan anyway!

rasp · Post by **rasp** » Fri May 13, 2005 10:23 pm

i think that politics and other such hot topics do not belong here even in an off topic place. emotions are too hard to control.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Fri May 13, 2005 10:33 pm

rasp wrote:i think that politics and other such hot topics do not belong here even in an off topic place. emotions are too hard to control.

Making any topic "off topic" in an "off topic" forum means it's allowed, though, no?

Paul Thomas · Post by **Paul Thomas** » Fri May 13, 2005 10:34 pm

AS it seems the Flaming Straw Man of Free Speech is getting heaved over Dales fence pretty frequently, I'd like to say that I don't think I have had any difficulty understanding the meaning and application of the posting policies of this board.

To say that--by accepting the Reasonable Person Principle (RPP) and its logical corollary, Civility--we speak only at the pleasure of Dale (or any moderator), is missing the point (and a bit dramatic, too).

That's like saying you want to drive on public roads but the requirement to drive on the right (or left, as it may be) grossly encumbers your personal freedom, and that your forays into the left (or right) lane should be met with acceptance and understanding - nay, joy! at the freedom of teamsterly expression!

There is not radical freedom here chez C&F, nor a state of nature, nor even a Social Contract. Just RPP, and its too bad Dale had to explain and codify it even further.

There's nothing hidden in the RPP - to say that the behavior applies only to oneself, and by corollary that one only polices oneself is in contradiction.

RPP wrote:Do not be offended if someone suggests you are not being reasonable.

...already we see mutual correction by peers, that's common here.

RPP wrote:Reasonable people think about their use of these facilities, and the needs of others, and adjust their behavior to meet the goals of a common good for the community, i.e., expressing what you want to say, but accepting and accommodating the needs of others.

"Needs of others," mind you, not the quirks, faults and thinly veiled misanthropy of others, but needs. Note that a common definition of the word civility is: "the act of showing regard for others"

First, hopefully, one will self-police (and self-censor, if need be!). If that fails, the other board members will likely correct unreasonable behavior, hopefully resulting in self-corrected behavior. Finally, if that fails (wait for it...it's a good one...) moderators are there if board members are EITHER unwilling OR unable to correct & comply. No, I suppose it doesn't say in the RPP "act like a reasonable person within this community or the hand of God in the form of His Moderators shall strike ye down" but I hardly think that's necessary to understand how it plays out when someone won't play along.

You'll always have people who find the furthest acceptable edge of a policy or social environment, and then make a game of balancing on the fence as long as possible until (inevitably) someone knocks them down and (just as inevitably) they will, astonished, claim "what did I do?" and the cause for matyrdom and the hagiography begins to build.

As Jim said mutatis mutandis, or plus ça change, or cherchez les femmes , or something like that.

rasp · Post by **rasp** » Fri May 13, 2005 10:37 pm

Cranberry wrote:
rasp wrote:i think that politics and other such hot topics do not belong here even in an off topic place. emotions are too hard to control.
Making any topic "off topic" in an "off topic" forum means it's allowed, though, no?

there are off topic that can be nice but politics is not one of them, though yes, it is off topic in a music forum but it is a hot topic that creates much pain, for some and hate in others.