Dinosaur embraced vegetarianism

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Dinosaur embraced vegetarianism

Post by Jack »

http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050502/ ... 502-3.html

Dinosaur embraced vegetarianism
by Michael Hopkin

Utah discovery reveals how a predator switched to eat greens.

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Fossil-hunters working in the dusty Utah desert have caught a dinosaur in the act of going vegetarian. The newly discovered species, which lived about 130 million years ago, displays the hallmarks of adapting to a leafy diet.

The species, christened Falcarius utahensis, belongs to a dinosaur group called the therizinosauroids. These are mostly thought to have been plant eaters. But the recently discovered fossil, the most primitive therizinosauroid found so far, seems to have survived on a mixed diet of meat and veg.

Researchers, led by James Kirkland of the Utah Geological Survey in Salt Lake City, uncovered a skull, pelvis and limb bones belonging to the species at Cedar Mountain in eastern Utah1. From the fossils they conclude that F. utahensis walked upright, standing more than a metre high and measuring some 4 metres from tip to tail.

Meat of the matter

The creature's teeth have a shape that seems to be adapted to leaf shredding, the researchers report. Similar teeth can be found in modern iguanas, for example, a reptilian family that also has a varied diet.

Falcarius utahensis also has a slightly widened pelvis, Kirkland's team points out, which would have been necessary to accommodate the longer gut needed to extract nutrients from plants.

But the dinosaur's legs reveal that it still has adaptations suited for meat eating as well. The creature's thigh bones were longer than its shin bones, suggesting that it could run at an impressive pace. "The legs are still adapted for running after prey," says Kirkland. Later therizinosauroids have longer shin bones, which suggests that they waddled around like long-legged birds.

It's not easy being green

The switch to vegetarianism is surprising, says Paul Barrett, who studies dinosaurs at the Natural History Museum in London. The therizinosauroids belong to a larger group of dinosaurs known as theropods, and many of these are known to have been excellent at catching a meaty meal.

"Nobody understands why theropods should revert to herbivory when they're such excellent predators," Barrett says. "It's a mystery." Perhaps certain dinosaurs were pushed along the evolutionary route to vegetarianism because they lived in an area where there was no other plant-eating competitor, he suggests.

Falcarius utahensis's diet is not its only noteworthy feature, Kirkland's team adds; its North American home is also a surprise. Until now, therizinosauroids have been found almost exclusively in China, which led experts to believe the group arose there.

"This was considered a nearly pure Asian group," Kirkland says. "Finding the most primitive member of the group in Utah throws that into question." The team now suspects that therizinosauroids once roamed over most of the Northern Hemisphere.
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Post by Flyingcursor »

All the speculation involving dinosaurs makes my head hurt.
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Post by Jack »

Flyingcursor wrote:All the speculation involving dinosaurs makes my head hurt.
Why?
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Post by Joseph E. Smith »

Flyingcursor wrote:All the speculation involving dinosaurs makes my head hurt.
You gotta remember that, for the most part, they are simply speculation, albeit educated, but speculation just the same.

Dogs, for instance, are mostly carnivores, but they can and will eat vegetables, grass, rocks, socks and plastic bags... among other things.
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Post by Jack »

Joseph E. Smith wrote:
Flyingcursor wrote:All the speculation involving dinosaurs makes my head hurt.
You gotta remember that, for the most part, they are simply speculation, albeit educated, but speculation just the same.

Dogs, for instance, are mostly carnivores, but they can and will eat vegetables, grass, rocks, socks and plastic bags... among other things.
Cats are carnivores. Dogs are omnivores with the possibility of being vegetarian, like people.
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Post by Martin Milner »

A quick measure of my thigh bone vs shin bone length shows that I am best adapted for lolling. I may not be vegetarian, but I am a couch potato.
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Post by Joseph E. Smith »

Cranberry wrote:
Joseph E. Smith wrote:
Flyingcursor wrote:All the speculation involving dinosaurs makes my head hurt.
You gotta remember that, for the most part, they are simply speculation, albeit educated, but speculation just the same.

Dogs, for instance, are mostly carnivores, but they can and will eat vegetables, grass, rocks, socks and plastic bags... among other things.
Cats are carnivores. Dogs are omnivores with the possibility of being vegetarian, like people.
OK.... The point remains that much of what is known about these beasties is speculation.
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Post by Jack »

Joseph E. Smith wrote:
Cranberry wrote:
Joseph E. Smith wrote: You gotta remember that, for the most part, they are simply speculation, albeit educated, but speculation just the same.

Dogs, for instance, are mostly carnivores, but they can and will eat vegetables, grass, rocks, socks and plastic bags... among other things.
Cats are carnivores. Dogs are omnivores with the possibility of being vegetarian, like people.
OK.... The point remains that much of what is known about these beasties is speculation.
Your avatar scares me. I miss the pretty dog. :(
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Post by missy »

"Dogs, for instance, are mostly carnivores, but they can and will eat vegetables, grass, rocks, socks and plastic bags... among other things."


..........skeleton keys, cassette tapes, tie clasps (3 times), drink from the toilet bowl, green beans off the bushes in the garden, rotten apples fallen from the tree, flowers, coffee grounds and filter out of the trash, bagels, angel food cake............

you get the idea! :D

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Re: Dinosaur embraced vegetarianism

Post by GaryKelly »

Because, as the flydood rightly says, it's speculation. Educated guesswork is still guesswork nevertheless. Let's look at some snippets from the article you quoted and play 'spot the bollocks':

Cranberry wrote:http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050502/ ... 502-3.html

Dinosaur embraced vegetarianism
by Michael Hopkin

GK - The title is emotive and utterly misleading, as the rest of the article will subsequently show.

Utah discovery reveals how a predator switched to eat greens.

GK - No it didn't, as the rest of the article subsequently shows.

Image

GK - Oh, my goodness! What in the world? is that? It looks like something from a Japanese Monster Movie. They got feathers, claws, a tail... all from "a skull, pelvis and limb bones" but not necessarily from the same individual. The picture is guesswork.

Fossil-hunters working in the dusty Utah desert have caught a dinosaur in the act of going vegetarian. The newly discovered species, which lived about 130 million years ago, displays the hallmarks of adapting to a leafy diet.

GK - Caught in the act of going vegetarian?? BS. Hallmarks? Some teeth that similar to an iguana's, and the iguana eats a balanced diet of meat and veg.

The species, christened Falcarius utahensis, belongs to a dinosaur group called the therizinosauroids. These are mostly thought to have been plant eaters. But the recently discovered fossil, the most primitive therizinosauroid found so far, seems to have survived on a mixed diet of meat and veg.

GK - So it's not vegetarian after all then eh? So much for being caught in the act and the big headlines.

Researchers, led by James Kirkland of the Utah Geological Survey in Salt Lake City, uncovered a skull, pelvis and limb bones belonging to the species at Cedar Mountain in eastern Utah1. From the fossils they conclude that F. utahensis walked upright, standing more than a metre high and measuring some 4 metres from tip to tail.

GK - Nice guess. Sorry, 'conclusion.'

Meat of the matter

The creature's teeth have a shape that seems to be adapted to leaf shredding, the researchers report. Similar teeth can be found in modern iguanas, for example, a reptilian family that also has a varied diet.

GK - "...seems to be adapted to leaf shredding." Seems to be? And hello iguana, that "also has a varied diet." Where's the vegetarian gone?

Falcarius utahensis also has a slightly widened pelvis, Kirkland's team points out, which would have been necessary to accommodate the longer gut needed to extract nutrients from plants.

GK - or not. Who knows? Guesswork.

But the dinosaur's legs reveal that it still has adaptations suited for meat eating as well. The creature's thigh bones were longer than its shin bones, suggesting that it could run at an impressive pace. "The legs are still adapted for running after prey," says Kirkland. Later therizinosauroids have longer shin bones, which suggests that they waddled around like long-legged birds.

GK - Suggests? Hints. Alludes to the possibility. Might be. Guesswork.

It's not easy being green

The switch to vegetarianism is surprising, says Paul Barrett, who studies dinosaurs at the Natural History Museum in London. The therizinosauroids belong to a larger group of dinosaurs known as theropods, and many of these are known to have been excellent at catching a meaty meal.

GK - "The switch to vegetarianism is surprising" not least because there wasn't one, viz. the varied diet and other 'speculation' quoted earlier.


"Nobody understands why theropods should revert to herbivory when they're such excellent predators," Barrett says. "It's a mystery." Perhaps certain dinosaurs were pushed along the evolutionary route to vegetarianism because they lived in an area where there was no other plant-eating competitor, he suggests.

GK - It's a mystery because it's all been guesswork and contradiction so far, based on a few teeth.

Falcarius utahensis's diet is not its only noteworthy feature, Kirkland's team adds; its North American home is also a surprise. Until now, therizinosauroids have been found almost exclusively in China, which led experts to believe the group arose there.

GK - It's diet hasn't been substantiated by any hard evidence (where's the coprolites?). Perhaps they waddled like big birds across a land-bridge all those years ago. Who knows? And since this is the first one found, it's no surprise that it's a surprise to find one in North America, is it?

"This was considered a nearly pure Asian group," Kirkland says. "Finding the most primitive member of the group in Utah throws that into question." The team now suspects that therizinosauroids once roamed over most of the Northern Hemisphere.

GK - Aha! The team now suspects they roamed all over the Northern Hemisphere, because they found a few bits of one in Utah! Hurrah! Hurrah for suspicions!

That's why, I reckon.
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Post by peeplj »

Dinosaur embraced vegetarianism
...and the entire species died out. :o :lol: :D

--James
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Post by Jack »

peeplj wrote:
Dinosaur embraced vegetarianism
...and the entire species died out. :o :lol: :D

--James
So did the meat eating ones!
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Post by Jack »

Gary, the green iguana (Latin name, iguana iguana, I think) is a vegetarian. I've had a few over the years. They love green beans. :)

They might eat a bug or snail while they're eating leaves, but they're by no means to be considered omnivorous.

I don't see why speculation and educated guesswork is a bad thing. All of history is such, pretty much.
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Post by Flyingcursor »

peeplj wrote:
Dinosaur embraced vegetarianism
...and the entire species died out. :o :lol: :D

--James

Golly I came back just to make that very joke.

Good job GK. You elucidate well.


Cran, I'm not picking on you.
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Post by GaryKelly »

It's not a bad thing per se, Cran, but it's bad when people clutch at that guesswork and speculation and proffer it as 'scientific fact.' (Or use it to justify or promote their own life-style choices). That too often happens, and the writer of that article is guilty of it (see his specious headline, for example).

One can readily accept the theory of uniformitarianism as applied to geology, but the same kind of thinking can't be applied to living, evolving creatures. Some of the astonishing claims made for creatures that lived and died a hundred million years ago, based purely on a few fragments of fossilised bone and the rich imagination of "researchers" is simply mind-boggling at times.
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