Ignorance of the flute playing tradition?

[MurphyStout]

This is not a personal attach in any way but I don't understand whether or not some of you guys are just ignorant of the rich flute playing tradition of Ireland or you just don't like it and prefer the modern approaches?

Now I know everybody says they like to listen to the old players because it's cliche` but do you actually like to listen to the stuff? Or do you prefer the Molloy, Crawford, Laurence Nugent, John Wynne, Seamus Egan, WFO style of playing?

Do you guys study the way the greats like Josie McDermott, Eddie Maloney, Packie Duignan, Paddy Carty, Des O'Conner, Peter Horan, Kevin Henry, etc play the flute? Have you ever tried to learn a tune off of these guys?

The reason I'm asking this is because when I listen to these guys I hear a rich tradition full of life, passion, love, sorrow, and maybe most importantly character. When I listen to most of the tracks on WFO, I hear a mini file played really fast without the same kind of life that's in the older recordings. These older recordings inspire me and make me want to pay homage and carry on the flute tradition. It is that simple, I love the style in which these guys play and I want to respect them by carrying on the tradition in a similar manner.

I hear the tratition dying off. Each year the modern stuff is becoming more and more prevalant and true good pure drop recordings like Sean Maloney's are becoming fewer and far between. I don't like this and I'm just curious why some of you guys approach the music the way you do... Is it ignorance or preference?

Disclamer- I don't think the music should be sealed in a box and never opened but this is a traditional music and it should be played in a traditional manner. And I have no problems with people branching out IF they are well versed in the tradition.

edited to fix a name

[treeshark]

Well I listen to both... and enjoy some and not others. I don't think music gains authenticity and character just by being 'old'. I some times find recordings of some old gaffer playing the fiddle out of tune a little hard to take...then you listen to James Morrison from the same period and think wow. There must be exponents of flute playing now that you like.. what about John Creaven lovely unassuming playing. I don't like the speed merchants much though I can admire the technique, and I would prefer Desi Wilkinson to say Conal O'Grada because Desi has such great feel for the tunes.
I think that is the key thing, the love of playing and the tune the first in service to the second, when that happens in a new style or old the result is magical. But of course everyone will will have a different idea of what is magic and what is not!

Off theme a bit have you heard 'The Thing Itself' By Maeve Donnelly and Peadar O'Loughlin on Claddagh very good and old style.
rob

[GaryKelly]

These older recordings inspire me and make me want to pay homage and carry on the flute tradition. It is that simple, I love the style in which these guys play and I want to respect them by carrying on the tradition in a similar manner.

Style is a uniquely personal thing. What is it about the 'style' you hear on the old recordings that inspires you? You don't say.

Is it the tempo? The 'old' recordings are mostly from America, and from an era when the music was danced to. The old 78's still in existence reflect the popular dance tempo and style of the times. These days, there isn't much dancing with the music is there? You don't mention Tom Morrison or John McKenna, so does the 'flute tradition' which inspires you have a cut-off date?

when I listen to these guys I hear a rich tradition full of life, passion, love, sorrow, and maybe most importantly character.

Really? What recordings are you listening to, I'd be interested in acquiring copies, 'cos the old stuff I have is scratchy, tinny, bandwidth-limited digital repros from the old 78's. Which, let's face it, were made pretty much for the same reason that popular bands release CDs today. (That said, I like 'em because they're being played with rock-solid dance-able tempo and rhythm, and aren't one continuous stream of rolls for 3 minutes. I just wish they'd had decent hifi recording technology back then).

I hate to say it, MurphyStout, but there are elements of your post that carry a somewhat "holier than thou" flavour which I'm not sure you intended but which are there. ("... Is it ignorance or preference," "...I have no problems with people branching out IF they are well versed in the tradition"). Makes it sound like you're way up there on the trad moral high ground, sneering down at the likes of McGoldrick, Molloy, Crawford et al who, from the tone of your post, would appear either to be "splitters" or not "well versed in the tradition".

[sturob]

Such insight . . .

Jack (MurphyStout) gets kind of rabid sometimes that modern players really aren't all that good, and that the only REAL flute playing is some of that old "pure drop" stuff.

The only thing I'd say about that, Jack, is that you've got kind of a skewed view of how the flute WAS played from those old recordings. Not everyone, certainly, played that way; the regional styles themselves have enough variability that it'd be hard to say that everyone today is bland and those "old geezers" are good.

Why does it bother you that people like the likes of Molloy and McGoldrick, for example? Just because someone used to play flute that way in rural Ireland (or in the US after they emigrated, as is the case for a lot of those recordings) doesn't mean their playing is THE style to emulate.

The likes of Molloy, McGoldrick, Nugent, et al. are the whole reason you can have this conversation. If they'd not been instrumental (at least Molloy) in bringing the Irish flute to the masses, you might be asking why we electric guitar players aren't all emulating Hendrix.

Stuart

[MurphyStout]

Well Gary, I wasn't trying to sound snobbish, I was just trying to express my viewpoint because I've butted heads with many people on this forum cause they did not understand where I was coming from. Yes, of course Mckenna and Tom Morrison fall under the old catagory but you show your ignorance by saying all the old stuff came from America and that they are all scratchy etc. Josie McDermott's and Paddy Carty's cd come to mind as being Irish made post78's and they are not screetchy like the 78's. BTW, you never hear me say that Molloy and company are not versed in the tradition. There is room for all of the types of playing styles and I think it's great that there is modern offshoot of the tradition but I don't like seeing it so lopsided with the past being abondoned.

Stuart, I never said that modern players were not good. Face facts, Molloy is the best flute player out there. He can do everything you can think of but even you might like him to play more traditional rather than doing flute gymnastics. (For the record, the irish music I heard was Chieftains 8 and the playing of Mick Turbridy inspired me to start learning so yeah of course I was brought into the tradition by a commercial album) Now if you say playing nowadays has more character and style than the older stuff I just simply have to disagree. We'll never agree on this subject and it's all a matter of preference... I was just trying to understand where everyone is coming from. Now Stuart (tongue in cheek), you should less time buying flutes and more time listening to the geezers... you'd probably end up agreeing with me.

[chas]

Can anyone point me to a source for these old recordings? I have the geezer tracks from Rich Lafferty's site, but beyond that I don't know where to get the sruff.

Thx.

[peeplj]

I listen to both and enjoy both.

To me it's not as clear-cut as if they had one basic style they played in the old days, and another now. There's not that much congruency among players now, for one things, and from the old stuff I've heard, there wasn't then, either.

That said, I do think you should listen to everything you can get your hands on.

An exercise I like to do: if I hear a flutist playing a track and I really don't care for their take on the tune, I will sometimes try to make myself learn to play the tune their way and try to figure out why they took that approach.

--James

[Jayhawk]

Jack said

Well Gary, I wasn't trying to sound snobbish, I was just trying to express my viewpoint because I've butted heads with many people on this forum cause they did not understand where I was coming from. Yes, of course Mckenna and Tom Morrison fall under the old catagory but you show your ignorance

A few quick thoughts Jack:

1) You're pretty quick to use the word ignorant which is likely why folks tend to think you might be a tad bit "holier than thou". On a board, context is so often lost.

2) Personally, I'm in agreement with you that I prefer the older/purer style. I have a Larry Nugent recording I picked up (more for the fiddle/accordion player on the CD), and while he is a fantastic player it doesn't move me. That said, he might play entirely differently in a session in Minneapolis.

3) All of us in America are at a wee bit of a disadvantage when it comes to growing up steeped in the tradition (which you said then allows you to break rules more easily/validly), so share the source of your old recordings! I'd love to find where to pick up copies.

4) What do you think of John Creaven mentioned above? Just curious, but I like his less ornamented style.

[kenny]

“murphystout” – I think you’re wrong to seemingly force this into an “either/or” situation with 2 categories of flute player. The names you have listed are all traditional Irish flute players. Why not listen to, and appreciate them all? The 2 lists you’ve provided are not mutually exclusive. I will agree with you totally that any flute player listening to Molloy , Crawford and co. is missing out on a lot if they are not listening to the players in your other list. Personally, I far prefer your Josie McDermott list to the Molloy list, and out of the lot of them, if I could only choose 1, I’d prefer to listen to Kevin Henry, who I’ve heard and actually been lucky enough to play with on a couple of occasions at the Willie Clancy week. A wonderful experience.
I think much of what you are decrying may actually be due to ignorance, [ and I mean that in it’s literal sense, ie “not knowing”] rather than preference. You can’t say you “prefer” one category rather than another unless you’ve heard both, and I’m sure
many of today’s players haven’t heard some of the older players in your second list.
This is hardly surprising when you consider the availability of recordings, because it’s far easier to go into a shop and find CDs by the names on your first list than your second. Flute players living outside of Ireland are very dependent on recordings for material and inspiration, unless they have a local Irish community or local players.
The tradition isn’t dying – on the contrary, it’s thriving, but it is changing, and it always has done. We may not like some of the directions it seems to be heading off in, - and I am faced with a similar situation in the state of Scottish traditional music today – but all we can do is fight our own corner, which is what I try to do.
It’s very easy, and common, these days to come across a flute player trying to emulate, for instance, Michael McGoldrick, ( who certainly is the highest –profile traditional flute player today in Scotland ), but I would never say to anyone “ don’t listen to him” or “don’t play like him”. For the last few years now , I’ve been saying, “ great, but have you heard Kevin Henry, or Harry Bradley?” and pointing them in their direction.
It’s an interesting discussion topic, and I’m sure it will develop. I look forward to the debate.
Out of curiousity, and just for a bit of mischief, “ murphystout”. Into which of your 2 lists would you put Harry Bradley, Desi Wilkinson or Conal O’Grada ?
[ And PS – I would think that Larry Nugent has more in common with the second list players than the first. ]

[Eldarion]

The only thing I'd say about that, Jack, is that you've got kind of a skewed view of how the flute WAS played from those old recordings. Not everyone, certainly, played that way; the regional styles themselves have enough variability that it'd be hard to say that everyone today is bland and those "old geezers" are good.

Hi, when you said "that way" could perhaps elaborate which way you were refering to, for sake of discussion? Amongst the older generation flute players mentioned there are quite a variety of playing styles already. It is pretty obvious to anyone who listens, that Eddie Moloney sounds different from Kevin Henry.

I don't quite understand how does listening to the old recordings provide a skewed viewpoint though, they were often of representative players of various regions with strong flute playing traditions. Or do you mean to say that what Jack terms "modern flute playing" is actually a traditional style based on a previously unrecorded county or region?

[GaryKelly]

Yes, of course Mckenna and Tom Morrison fall under the old catagory but you show your ignorance by saying all the old stuff came from America and that they are all scratchy etc. Josie McDermott's and Paddy Carty's cd come to mind as being Irish made post78's and they are not screetchy like the 78's.

Oh well pardon my feckin' ignorance, I thought you were talking about the old masters from before the 60's and 70's. The ones that Josie McDermott and Paddy Carty would've learned from, the ones that influenced their styles and so forth in the traditional manner. Guess you do have a cut-off date for when the tradition starts after all; Post-Revival?

[Eldarion]

Can anyone point me to a source for these old recordings? I have the geezer tracks from Rich Lafferty's site, but beyond that I don't know where to get the sruff.

Thx.

Hello, there are some other commercially available stuff of old flute players apart from the geezer tracks. Kevin Henry's, Josie McDermott's as well as Paddy Carty's fluting is also available on CD. You can also check out Peadar O'Loughlin and Maeve Donnelly's "The Thing Itself", thats also old styled flute playing with fiddle but of the West Clare persuasion. Jack will most likely endorse the "Mountain Road" collection of flute playing that has a good proportion of old styled Sligo fluters.

Claddagh Records is my favourite commercial source but if you are in the States, it might work out cheaper to order from Phil Varlet's Celtic Grooves. Most of the field recording/archive/out of print material though, you get via swapping with people online on forums like this or other email lists.

[Whistlin'Dixie]

My perspective is perhaps unique, but I have a son who is about Jack's age. He is a wonderful young man, goes to the University of Oregon, and is my best friend. I miss him when he's away.

Michael is filled with all the passion and enthusiasm of youth, and very much has his own opinion of things, which he is not shy about expressing.

I see that in Jack. He is passionate about his flute, the music and the tradition in which it is steeped. He is trying to learn all he can about it, because it is something that is important to him. He has dedicated himself to learning from as many of the old traditional players as possible, hunting out sources for the music (which I admit I am too lazy to spend time searching for). The way he expresses himself in this regard is very much secondary to his age ~ and even I can remember how it was to be that age!

Thank God for youth!

M

[rh]

[ And PS – I would think that Larry Nugent has more in common with the second list players than the first. ]

i would too. i know some of his recordings are kind of commercial and i haven't heard him live in years but the times i've seen him he played nothing like Molloy et al... listen to him play with Kevin Henry, i think that's more his soul kind of music... i could be wrong though.

[chas]

. . .
Claddagh Records is my favourite commercial source but if you are in the States, it might work out cheaper to order from Phil Varlet's Celtic Grooves. Most of the field recording/archive/out of print material though, you get via swapping with people online on forums like this or other email lists.

Thanks, mon. If it was a snake it would've bit me -- Philippe's right down the road from me.