Music reading question

mujo · Post by **mujo** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 7:57 am

There is a tune on JC's tunefinder that I would like to learn called "autumn leaves" but the sheet music is in the key of Edor. Can I play this just as is or do I need tofigure out how to transcribe transcribe it. any help would be appreciated.
Thanks

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:07 am

E dorian is E with two sharps. This key is perfectly playable on a D whistle. (Though of course the tune may go below the whistle's range or something.)

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:41 pm

colomon wrote:E dorian is E with two sharps. .................

An E with two sharps!!!????? E##

colomon wrote:................(Though of course the tune may go below the whistle's range or something.)

If it does that you had best get an A tube.
Then your E will be at XXO OOO
(and remember to cross finger for the third)
and you will be able to do the drop downs nicely.

(if you don't cross finger for the 3rd
it will be E Mixolydian instead of Dorian)

Darwin · Post by **Darwin** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:33 pm

Mujo, the simple answer is that E Dorian--and that tune in particular--works fine on a D whistle.

As a rule, most of what you find on JC's will be playable on a D whistle if it's listed as D, D Major, E Dorian, A Mixolydian, B Minor, or B Aeolian. Those all have two sharps.

Also, G, G Major, A Dorian, D Mixolydian, E Minor, or E Aeolian--all of which have one sharp.

Those are generally the easiest (fewest odd fingerings, that is), and the most common. Some with three sharps and some with none will come out okay, too.

Of course, sometimes the keys that are listed there are completely wrong, but there's not much you can do about that, except look at the sheet music and figure it out. Often a tune will be listed as major or minor when its Dorian, but as long as it has one or two sharps and doesn't go out of range of your whistle, you don't really need to worry about what it really is.

(Gosh, talasiga, don't confuse folks on purpose.

)

Whitmores75087 · Post by **Whitmores75087** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:04 pm

The key of E, in the dorian mode, has two sharps....C and F. Looks like someone out there found this funny. Go to www.geocities.com/novairishsession/modes/modes.htm

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:16 pm

Whitmores75087 wrote:The key of E, in the dorian mode, has two sharps....C and F.

Ooooooh.... cognitive dissonance... (or am I still hung over?)

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:55 pm

Whitmores75087 wrote:The key of E, in the dorian mode, has two sharps....C and F. .........

I am glad its the C and F that are sharp and not the G and the A.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:33 am

Whitmores75087 wrote:The key of E, in the dorian mode, has two sharps....C and F. Looks like someone out there found this funny. Go to www.geocities.com/novairishsession/modes/modes.htm

I feel like I should explain briefly.

If you are speaking of "keys" you are refering to major and minor (like in classical music). The key of E major has for sharps: f#, c#, g#, d#. The key of E-minor is the relative of G-major and has two sharps: f# and c#.

People will speak either of keys or of modes. Modes are used in ancient church music. When people started thinking and writing about Irish traditional music, they used the old church-music modes to describe it. For instance, Breandan Breathnach did this in his book "Folk Music and Dances of Ireland" (1993). (A great, short book by the way, very understandable if a bit outdated.) The modes are named after even more ancient Greek music. The Greeks believed that different scales represented different regional characters and named the scales after regions in Greece: Ionian, Dorian, lydian, Phrygian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian.

Keys and Modes are really to different things, but they relate in that Major is the same thing as Ionian and Minor is the same thing as Aeolian (Minor is a bit more complicated, since there are different kinds of Minor).

If you want to construct modes, you can take a major scale (say D-major, with two sharps, f# and c#). Playing a seven-note scale starting with the notes of D-major will give you the modes.

D-major

D - d (Ionian = major)
E - e (Dorian)
F# - f# (Lydian)
G - g (Phrygian)
A - a (Mixolydian)
B - b (Aeolian = minor)
C# - c# (Locrian).

All of those modes have two sharps.

In G-major (one sharp, f#), some modes would be

G - g (Ionian = major)
A - a (Dorian)
D - d (Mixolydian)
E - e (Aeolian = minor)

Short cut for figuring out Dorian: Dorian is built on the second step of the major scale. You see two sharps on the staff = D-major, the corresponding Dorian mode is E-Dorian.

Ok. Hope it's clear now why "Key of E - Dorian mode" is not the best way of putting it.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:51 am

From that webpage:

Among players of traditional Irish folk music, one often hears about tunes that are, for instance, "in D Major" or "in A Dorian", by which they actually mean, respectively, "in the key of D and in the Major mode" and: "in the key of A and in the Dorian mode". In other words, "key" in its proper sense refers strictly to the pitch of the keynote of a tune (D, A or E, etc.) and "mode" to its relative position in the music scale on which the tune is based.

That's not quite kosher. Instead of keynote he should say tonic, and saying "in the key of D and in Major mode" is pretty much nonsense.

carrie · Post by **carrie** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:17 am

I think for my 1K post festivity, if I ever get there, I will call for a little locrian mode tune writing contest.

Carol

MarkB · Post by **MarkB** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:16 pm

Locrian?

Or how to waste time by Carol Skinner! You can waste some time here Carol!

http://www.locrian.com.au/

I don't know nuffin about mixodians or where they are from, let alone tutonics etc. So's I went a lookin'.

This is your fault why I'm sitting here on beautiful summer's day, Carol

http://www.banjolin.supanet.com/locrian_mode.htm

Or was this what you meant

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/040205/locrian.shtml

MarkB

carrie · Post by **carrie** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:41 pm

You know what's funny? That book about the Locrian women by James Redfield: one summer I sublet his apartment in Hyde Park, near the U of C. Never met him, got it through a friend. But you have to admit, isn't it kinda weird that that connection should come up in your (admit it, now) frivolous web surfing?

Mark, I am truly sorry to ruin a summer day for you! But what a joy and pleasure it has been to have another 10 minutes of not doing work!

Thanks!

Carol

MarkB · Post by **MarkB** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:19 pm

Ah, you didn't ruin it Carol, the wind on the river started gusting about 15-25 MPH this morning, making it a bit hard to kayak.

I'm librarian and am never frivolous about surfing the internet, it's just like an endless curiousity shop.

MarkB

Whitmores75087 · Post by **Whitmores75087** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:34 am

Oops! My bad. Several days after making that post I slapped my forehead and said "key of what!?". Oh well, at least it stimulated some good elaboration on the subject in general.

Unless I'm completely confused, I believe I should have said: "Key of D, dorian mode".

SirNick · Post by **SirNick** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:49 am

Bloomfield wrote:
Whitmores75087 wrote:The key of E, in the dorian mode, has two sharps....C and F. Looks like someone out there found this funny. Go to www.geocities.com/novairishsession/modes/modes.htm
I feel like I should explain briefly.

If you are speaking of "keys" you are refering to major and minor (like in classical music). The key of E major has for sharps: f#, c#, g#, d#. The key of E-minor is the relative of G-major and has two sharps: f# and c#.

People will speak either of keys or of modes. Modes are used in ancient church music. When people started thinking and writing about Irish traditional music, they used the old church-music modes to describe it. For instance, Breandan Breathnach did this in his book "Folk Music and Dances of Ireland" (1993). (A great, short book by the way, very understandable if a bit outdated.) The modes are named after even more ancient Greek music. The Greeks believed that different scales represented different regional characters and named the scales after regions in Greece: Ionian, Dorian, lydian, Phrygian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian.

Keys and Modes are really to different things, but they relate in that Major is the same thing as Ionian and Minor is the same thing as Aeolian (Minor is a bit more complicated, since there are different kinds of Minor).

If you want to construct modes, you can take a major scale (say D-major, with two sharps, f# and c#). Playing a seven-note scale starting with the notes of D-major will give you the modes.

D-major

D - d (Ionian = major)
E - e (Dorian)
F# - f# (Lydian)
G - g (Phrygian)
A - a (Mixolydian)
B - b (Aeolian = minor)
C# - c# (Locrian).

All of those modes have two sharps.

In G-major (one sharp, f#), some modes would be

G - g (Ionian = major)
A - a (Dorian)
D - d (Mixolydian)
E - e (Aeolian = minor)

Short cut for figuring out Dorian: Dorian is built on the second step of the major scale. You see two sharps on the staff = D-major, the corresponding Dorian mode is E-Dorian.

Ok. Hope it's clear now why "Key of E - Dorian mode" is not the best way of putting it.

Man Bloomfield, Gunther schooled you well!!