Hi,
I was wondering how many of you have keyless flutes, where the C# is not flat, or the C nat fingering is not sharp.
I guess this is a age old problem, that was corrected by creating a C nat key, and using it to vent when playing C#.
Is Your Keyless Flute C# in tune?
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Jon C.
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glauber
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It's never in tune, that's a flute you're talking about! You have to play it in tune.
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Jon C.
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sturob
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You have to be really careful about stuff like this.
My opinion follows.
NO flute is absolutely in tune with itself. If you ever read that a given instrument is in tune with itself, look at the context. There are some flutes that have a very-VERY-in-tune first octave, at the expense of a slightly out-of-tune second octave and a nearly-unplayable third octave. It's all give-and take; even doing funky things like Siccama-system keys won't bring all octaves into perfect tune because that's the nature of the beast.
C# is often slightly flat on simple system flutes. But it's flat in the first octave and relatively in-tune in the second octave. If the C# is bang on with no manipulation in the first octave, it's probably sharp when overblown. So, in my opinion, you WANT your first-octave C# to be a little bit flat, because you can always push it up . . . and it's easier to push/lip notes up than it is to bring them down.
I'm NO FLUTEMAKER, but it seems like the internal tuning of a flute is an amazing balancing act. I find playing certain flutes (yes, like my beloved Olwell, and the Byrne, and the Grinter) to be quite rewarding. You have to get to know them. On the topic of C#, the C# on the Grinter (which is a Bb) is different than the C# on the Olwell. When I go back to the Olwell after just playing the Grinter, I think, "Wow, that C# is flat!" But then I think about what I'm doing and it's in tune. Same thing with the other direction . . . if I play the Olwell (D or Eb) and switch to the Grinter, it seems like the C# on the Grinter is flat.
I think one helpful thing for learning to play a simple-system flute in tune is to imagine the drone underneath you, and learn the "right" dissonances for all the notes relative to the tonic. Maybe that's because I come from piping, but rather than play to a tuner for practice, play to a tuner playing D (or G or whatever) and learn how to make it sound right. That fixes all the problems with trying to have a tuner that's tempered the same way you want to play your flute.
OK, so you asked about C#s. This is a LONG, DRAWN-OUT agreement with my colleague Glauber, in that ". . . you have to play it in tune."
Stuart
My opinion follows.
NO flute is absolutely in tune with itself. If you ever read that a given instrument is in tune with itself, look at the context. There are some flutes that have a very-VERY-in-tune first octave, at the expense of a slightly out-of-tune second octave and a nearly-unplayable third octave. It's all give-and take; even doing funky things like Siccama-system keys won't bring all octaves into perfect tune because that's the nature of the beast.
C# is often slightly flat on simple system flutes. But it's flat in the first octave and relatively in-tune in the second octave. If the C# is bang on with no manipulation in the first octave, it's probably sharp when overblown. So, in my opinion, you WANT your first-octave C# to be a little bit flat, because you can always push it up . . . and it's easier to push/lip notes up than it is to bring them down.
I'm NO FLUTEMAKER, but it seems like the internal tuning of a flute is an amazing balancing act. I find playing certain flutes (yes, like my beloved Olwell, and the Byrne, and the Grinter) to be quite rewarding. You have to get to know them. On the topic of C#, the C# on the Grinter (which is a Bb) is different than the C# on the Olwell. When I go back to the Olwell after just playing the Grinter, I think, "Wow, that C# is flat!" But then I think about what I'm doing and it's in tune. Same thing with the other direction . . . if I play the Olwell (D or Eb) and switch to the Grinter, it seems like the C# on the Grinter is flat.
I think one helpful thing for learning to play a simple-system flute in tune is to imagine the drone underneath you, and learn the "right" dissonances for all the notes relative to the tonic. Maybe that's because I come from piping, but rather than play to a tuner for practice, play to a tuner playing D (or G or whatever) and learn how to make it sound right. That fixes all the problems with trying to have a tuner that's tempered the same way you want to play your flute.
OK, so you asked about C#s. This is a LONG, DRAWN-OUT agreement with my colleague Glauber, in that ". . . you have to play it in tune."
Stuart
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glauber
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It's all a series of compromises. The situation is better with the Boehm flute because of the better venting, but the C# is still a demon note, because the C# hole is positioned so it serves as a vent for the second octave D, instead of being in its most favourable location (it's the only note that doesn't get a nice big hole in the Boehm flute).
But reading Jon's second post, i think i understand his context better. He's curious about how many flutes out there favour the tuning of the C# at the cost of making the 2-fingered C-nat a little sharp.
But reading Jon's second post, i think i understand his context better. He's curious about how many flutes out there favour the tuning of the C# at the cost of making the 2-fingered C-nat a little sharp.
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog!
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Nanohedron
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Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps. - Location: Lefse country
.....owning an Olwell and it not mattering.... 
Sheer poetry.sturob wrote:You have to be really careful about stuff like this.
My opinion follows.
NO flute is absolutely in tune with itself. If you ever read that a given instrument is in tune with itself, look at the context. There are some flutes that have a very-VERY-in-tune first octave, at the expense of a slightly out-of-tune second octave and a nearly-unplayable third octave. It's all give-and take; even doing funky things like Siccama-system keys won't bring all octaves into perfect tune because that's the nature of the beast.
C# is often slightly flat on simple system flutes. But it's flat in the first octave and relatively in-tune in the second octave. If the C# is bang on with no manipulation in the first octave, it's probably sharp when overblown. So, in my opinion, you WANT your first-octave C# to be a little bit flat, because you can always push it up . . . and it's easier to push/lip notes up than it is to bring them down.
I'm NO FLUTEMAKER, but it seems like the internal tuning of a flute is an amazing balancing act. I find playing certain flutes (yes, like my beloved Olwell, and the Byrne, and the Grinter) to be quite rewarding. You have to get to know them. On the topic of C#, the C# on the Grinter (which is a Bb) is different than the C# on the Olwell. When I go back to the Olwell after just playing the Grinter, I think, "Wow, that C# is flat!" But then I think about what I'm doing and it's in tune. Same thing with the other direction . . . if I play the Olwell (D or Eb) and switch to the Grinter, it seems like the C# on the Grinter is flat.
I think one helpful thing for learning to play a simple-system flute in tune is to imagine the drone underneath you, and learn the "right" dissonances for all the notes relative to the tonic. Maybe that's because I come from piping, but rather than play to a tuner for practice, play to a tuner playing D (or G or whatever) and learn how to make it sound right. That fixes all the problems with trying to have a tuner that's tempered the same way you want to play your flute.
OK, so you asked about C#s. This is a LONG, DRAWN-OUT agreement with my colleague Glauber, in that ". . . you have to play it in tune."
Stuart
qui jure suo utitur neminem laedit
talasiga's 5 star rating
Seery African Blackwood (SN 2932)
crisp winter morning 40degF
results at 440 setting:-
D exact 5 stars
C with oxx xox exact 3 stars
C a little # at oxx ooo exact for 443 setting
C#exact 4 stars
*full dentures
*KORG chromatic tuner CA-30
crisp winter morning 40degF
results at 440 setting:-
D exact 5 stars
C with oxx xox exact 3 stars
C a little # at oxx ooo exact for 443 setting
C#exact 4 stars
*full dentures
*KORG chromatic tuner CA-30
qui jure suo utitur neminem laedit
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Jon C.
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Thanks For your input Stuart, it was helpful.
I am making a R&R flute out of the dreaded delrin, and was expermenting with the tuning of C# I think I like it a little flat also, I tryed it both ways, when I bring the C# in to tune, it does throw off the third octave tuning.
Thanks again!
Jon
Ps I knew the Olwell owners would answer that way...
I am making a R&R flute out of the dreaded delrin, and was expermenting with the tuning of C# I think I like it a little flat also, I tryed it both ways, when I bring the C# in to tune, it does throw off the third octave tuning.
Thanks again!
Jon
Ps I knew the Olwell owners would answer that way...
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Henke
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My band members are always complaining about my flat C# when I play my M&E R&R. It is very flat. I guess I just have to learn to lip it up a bit. Still got some embouchure refinements to make. Also the oxx ooo fingering for C nat seems flat 
. I usually just play ooo ooo for both C# and C nat on fast tunes but on slower stuff I try to lip up the C# as best as I can and half hole the C nat which usually brings it into tune.
. I usually just play ooo ooo for both C# and C nat on fast tunes but on slower stuff I try to lip up the C# as best as I can and half hole the C nat which usually brings it into tune.