Rosewood or Cocobolo for flute

[Fergmaun]

I am thinking of getting one of Alan Ginsberg flute Concert pitch keyless Four piece (Pratten copies) with tunable sliding head costing £420. No waiting list like other flute makers as Alan said he would post flute when he gets the cheque.

Which wood should I go for Rosewood or Cocobolo and which sounds better. Alan said that rosewood would make the instrument much lighter.

All the best

[eilam]

Cocobolo is a type of Rosewood, It's heavier then most Rosewoods, and more people have reaction to it. But I would go with the Cocobolo, for it's density.

[glauber]

Yes, rosewood is a general term for a lot of different woods that smell nice when machined.

Is cocobolo the same as cocus?

[eilam]

Cocobolo is much heavier then Cocus, and smells deferent then the Rosewoods, kind of Toxic smell, but is very dense, and I think a great timber for woodwinds.

[sturob]

Cocobolo is Dalbergia retusa, whereas cocus is Brya ebenus. "Rosewood" doesn't really mean anything; I wonder if Ginsburg will tell you what kind of rosewood?

Cocobolo is a wonderful tonewood, but it seems to be quite allergenic.

Stuart

[jim stone]

Flutes said to be made of rosewood have
a bright sound. It's fine, but I like other tones
better.

[glauber]

I used to think that Rosewood is from roses!

I thought it would take many years to grow a rose tree thick enough to make a flute from! But Terry McGee tells me that there's a group of woods called rosewoods because they smell sort of like roses when you work with them.

g

[Fergmaun]

Photo from Alan Glinsberg's website.

If I am right the bottom flute is Blackwood or ebony is the middle flute cocobolo and top flute rosewood.

[glauber]

Here's what David Faulkner told me once in the WOODENFLUTE list:

Rosewoods are tropical hardwoods from the genus Dalbergia, in the botanical family Leguminosae, which includes beans, peas, acacias, black locust, mesquite, padauk and many others. The rosewoods are widely distributed in the tropical parts of the world. There are rosewoods from Mexico and Central America, Brazil and Bolivia, and most likely from Columbia, Venezuela, Ecuador and the Guyanas, from Africa and Madagascar, from India and Burma and Southeast Asia, the Philippines and Indonesia. They often have intense colors and black or purple markings on dark red or brown background. The sapwood is usually much lighter in color than the heartwood. Rosewoods have been used for many different purposes, cabinetry, musical instruments (guitars, pianos and others), brush handles and knife handles. Rosewoods are usually hard, heavy and strong. Many rosewoods have an oily or waxy feel, due to the presence of resins. Rosewoods usually work nicely and take a very smooth finish. African Blackwood, much esteemed for making bagpipes, flutes and other woodwind instruments, is a rosewood, Dalbergia Melanoxylon (melanoxylon, melano + xylon, is neo-Greek for black wood).

Rosewoods often have a spicy fragrance when worked. How they got the name rosewood is beyond me. It’s common to say that the name comes from the fragrance. I never smelled any rose that smells even faintly like the rosewoods I have worked (Brazilian Rosewood, Honduras Rosewood, Cocobolo, and East Indian Rosewood). To me Brazilian Rosewood smells more like cinnamon than like roses. Some rosewoods have a fragrance like tea.

Some people have a strong allergic reaction to some rosewoods, especially Cocobolo, a Central American rosewood with a high density and beautiful variegated coloring. The reaction can involve the nasal passages being irritated by the fumes and dust of the worked wood (that's me -- feels like someone's inside my nose and sinuses with a blow-torch), or can be a dermatic reaction to the solid wood. Before ordering or using a flute made of Cocobolo, it's a good idea to check for such a reaction. It would be a shame to commission a beautiful instrument only to find it unusable because of a reaction to the wood. Most rosewoods are OK for nearly all people. Cocobolo has by far the "worst" reputation in this regard.

Many rosewoods are now in short supply as timbers for use, and some are endangered in the wild, because of over-harvesting. Brazilian Rosewood, Dalbergia Nigra, is on the list of materials prohibited in international trade to protect it from further depredation and possible extinction (The old growth trees with dark intrerestingly marked heartwood are almost gone). The government of India has restricted harvesting and international trade in Indian Rosewood, Dalbergia Latifolia. The Viet Nam war killed or damaged many rosewood trees there.

So it turns out you don't have to choose between cocobolo and a rosewood, after all!

I think he probably means Indian Rosewood, or Brazilian Rosewood (aka Jacarandá).

[Nelson]

Cocobola is black and red striped exotic wood. Like most woods for flutes, like african black wood, it is heavier than water. It is so oilly that you can not even glue to it. If you have allergies, you might have to put eposy around the embrochure.

More importantly, there is no difference in the sound of a flute as a result of the material, be it wood, silver, copper, or plastic. It has taken 5 years of so, for people to accept this, but they are gradually. The best masterial for a flute is polymer because it will ot crack around the head piece. All wood flutes will eventually crack along the head joint. If you have doubts about this (and I am sure many will), go to google and search under a scienist, John W. Coltman. He took 100 of so professional flutist, has them to play identical flutes made of silver, copper, and wood. One played while the others listened. Neither the player of listeners could tell the difference. He went into detailed statistal analysis, also. The artical was "Effect of Material on Flute Tone Quality", The Journal of the Accustical Socity of America.

The reason (over simplified) is that the sound loss due to the friction of the walls is 10,000 times the loss due to the wall material. Geometry changes of 1/1000 of an inch cause more difference in sound output than material loss. For example, Terry McGee says he can tell the difference between his box wood flute and a blackwood flute. Of course you can. Box wood always creeps and twist .5/1000 of an inch all the time. The polish if the inside makes a difference also. But smoothest is not necessarly the best. Golf balls have more friction than smooth ones.
If you want to know the mathmatics of this, and can do differential equations, let me know and I will reccomend a text on the Physics of musical instruments.

So you are being hoodwinked by wooden flute makers. If you want an honest flute maker, go to Michael Cronnlley. He'll make you one of polymer with no ostantacious rings. Or he'll make you a blackwood or cocobola flute, but he will tell you that is a real pain to keep from cracking.

For $350 he will give you a good delrin flute. So will a couple of othe makers.

[eilam]

Nelson - let me tell you that Cocobolo can be glued, I use Epoxy for exotic woods that works great (have you tried gluing Delrin?).
To me, the biggest part in playing the flute is how it feels and sounds to me. I agree with you that there is a great potential in Delrin, but I don't agree with you that it's all in the material, and therefore one should buy a Delrin M&E or Seery for less then what you pay Terry and you get the same or better flute.
I have an M&E and I had a Seery and I think they are great flutes for the price, but they do lack the extra work that Terry puts into his flutes and therefore charges more (I'm only using Terry's name because you mentioned him, I think the same goes for all the makers that take time for detailed work). The extra price is not for the material, it's for the craftsmanship and time put into the making.
I'm not by any means saying that Terry is a better maker then say Michael, I do think they're aiming to make flutes for different needs, and obviously there is a place in the market for both (I have flutes by both and play them in different circumstances).

[glauber]

For $350 he will give you a good delrin flute.

Interesting use of the verb to give!

[David Levine]

Jesus wept! Anybody who thinks that the material is irrelevant to the sound of the flute probably doesn't play one very well. For whatever reason -- bore finish, changes in physical structure, reaction to climate -- boxwood flutes sound different than blackwood or cocus flutes.
Tapping on a turned, solid piece of cocus produces a distinctly sonorous ringing tone, unlike blackwood or boxwood. Is it foolish to think that this quality would disappear in the finished flute?
To say that the different sound of a boxwood flute is due to the minute change it undergoes in the hands of a player is precisely the reason why we claim that boxwood has a different sound than other flutes. It is obtuse and wrong-headed to say that material is irrelevant-- or that a delrin flute made by Michael Cronnoly is as good as a flute made by one of the great modern makers. What great player is happy playing a flute made from a synthetic material?

[jim stone]

Cocobola is black and red striped exotic wood. Like most woods for flutes, like african black wood, it is heavier than water. It is so oilly that you can not even glue to it. If you have allergies, you might have to put eposy around the embrochure.

More importantly, there is no difference in the sound of a flute as a result of the material, be it wood, silver, copper, or plastic. It has taken 5 years of so, for people to accept this, but they are gradually. The best masterial for a flute is polymer because it will ot crack around the head piece. All wood flutes will eventually crack along the head joint. If you have doubts about this (and I am sure many will), go to google and search under a scienist, John W. Coltman. He took 100 of so professional flutist, has them to play identical flutes made of silver, copper, and wood. One played while the others listened. Neither the player of listeners could tell the difference. He went into detailed statistal analysis, also. The artical was "Effect of Material on Flute Tone Quality", The Journal of the Accustical Socity of America.

The reason (over simplified) is that the sound loss due to the friction of the walls is 10,000 times the loss due to the wall material. Geometry changes of 1/1000 of an inch cause more difference in sound output than material loss. For example, Terry McGee says he can tell the difference between his box wood flute and a blackwood flute. Of course you can. Box wood always creeps and twist .5/1000 of an inch all the time. The polish if the inside makes a difference also. But smoothest is not necessarly the best. Golf balls have more friction than smooth ones.
If you want to know the mathmatics of this, and can do differential equations, let me know and I will reccomend a text on the Physics of musical instruments.

So you are being hoodwinked by wooden flute makers. If you want an honest flute maker, go to Michael Cronnlley. He'll make you one of polymer with no ostantacious rings. Or he'll make you a blackwood or cocobola flute, but he will tell you that is a real pain to keep from cracking.

For $350 he will give you a good delrin flute. So will a couple of othe makers.

One thing I think I can disagree with with some authority
is that this theory is gradually being accepted. Best

[Dana]

One thing I think I can disagree with with some authorityis that this theory is gradually being accepted. Best

I accept Jim's statement (not the theory). On my silver flute, I have a gold embouchure and a gold crown. Having the bit of extra gold adds a wonderful warmth to the sound of this flute. When I added the gold crown (same size as my old silver crown), "blind" flute-playing listeners were stunned at the difference in the sound.

Dana