reels and hornpipes: what's the difference?

Paul Patrick · Post by **Paul Patrick** » Tue Dec 11, 2001 9:01 am

Right, what's the difference? I had thought you play hornpipes with that swingy hornpipe rhythm and reels without it (and maybe faster). But Matt Molloy plays the Home Ruler on Chieftains 9 and I thought it was a reel (sounded like it to me!) until I read "hornpipe" in the notes. So is the difference NOT in the rhythm? What am I missing?

I know names are arbitrary, etc., but I'll feel like an idiot if I can't even distinguish between reel and hornpipe!

Thanks in advance to all who try to clear my fog

Paul

Martin Milner · Post by **Martin Milner** » Tue Dec 11, 2001 9:15 am

I'd like to know too. Sometimes hornpipes are written out with the dotted rhythm, sometimes not, so on the sheet music they can look identical. Usually Hornpipes are played slower than Reels, but not always. Like Paul, I've heard a tune I thought was a reel but was actually a Hornpipe.

Maybe it's all to do with the dance steps associated with the tunes?

Stan · Post by **Stan** » Tue Dec 11, 2001 9:24 am

Here's a lengthy discussion on the
subject:

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/204

Paul Patrick · Post by **Paul Patrick** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 11:30 am

Thanks Stan. Fool that I am, I'd hoped it was something straightfoward. Ah well...

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:45 pm

I don't know what these guys overthere were saying, there is a very distinct difference in rythmic structure between hrnp and reel.
listen to the endings, hrnp has three distinctly accented notes at the end.

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 6:12 pm

The "style" and timing aside,the most precise difference between a hornpipe and a reel is the instrument they were aranged for. A "Hornpipe" or "Whithorn" is a reed pipe very similar to a Bagpipe Chanter or a Shawm with a range of about a 12th. A "Reel" is composed for a whistle,fife or a fiddle.

Many tunes that exceed the range of a 12th are not realy "hornpipes" or they are modified arangements for Hornpipe and a "consort" of instruments. Over the course of time these two styles have begun to merge.

T.H.

LKtz · Post by **LKtz** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 7:30 pm

Well, as an irish dancer, I can tell you hornpipes very much have a different rythem than reels. Interesting enough in irish dance there are "slow" and "fast" hornpipes. And I do not mean a hornpipe played really slow vs. the same one played really fast. If I was dancing to a fast hornpipe the rythem would be something like "tip treble down treble hop back one two <pause> tip teble hop back one two...etc" It has a swingy rythem with a lot of natural pauses. Well, hope that helps and I must add hornpipes are some of my favorite tunes to play.

Caryn

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:35 am

On 2001-12-12 19:12, Thomas-Hastay wrote:
The "style" and timing aside,the most precise difference between a hornpipe and a reel is the instrument they were aranged for. A "Hornpipe" or "Whithorn" is a reed pipe very similar to a Bagpipe Chanter or a Shawm with a range of about a 12th. A "Reel" is composed for a whistle,fife or a fiddle.

Many tunes that exceed the range of a 12th are not realy "hornpipes" or they are modified arangements for Hornpipe and a "consort" of instruments. Over the course of time these two styles have begun to merge.

T.H.

The above is complete and utter nonsense.

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 7:18 am

Actually Peter, I understood it just fine. I think it was in English; American English, but it usually translates fine.

Erik

[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2001-12-13 08:21 ]

Wandering_Whistler · Post by **Wandering_Whistler** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 7:43 am

Not only was it good understandable English, it was fairly accurate, too.

Thomas says 'The "style" and timing aside', meaning that in addition to these considerations, hornpipes were essentially written for...the hornpipe. Go figure.

Thomas' statements don't contradict anything I've read about the subject of hornpipes. And believe me, when Chuck (if I remember correctly) found an unidentified instrument on Ebay, I read a *lot* about hornpipes in trying to help identify it.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:03 am

We are speaking over the hornpipe in traditional music here and the difference between that form and the reel.

It is not the case that the present repertoire was written for the hornpipe or consort ensembles nor are reels specifically composed for the fiddle or the fife.

The hornpipe as an instrument is associated with medieval and earlier times and geographical areas that don't concern us here.

Breathnach dates the original introduction of the hornpipe as a dance in it's present form back to the 1760s in England when it was introduced as an interlude in stage plays.

Other sources assume it developed from the Lancashire clog dance. In fact Ryan's Mammoth collection contains a lot of clogs, melodies which now would be played as a hornpipe (equally some hornpipes are marked: can be used as a clog).

A quick scan through early Irish collections reveals the following : O Farrells Pocket companion (1810)has hardly any hornpipes (I came across one that was distinctly marked Irish, The Canon Goodman collection (1840-60), reissued as tune of the Munster pipers didn't show up many either (I didn't go over it tune by tune though). Collections compiled around the turn of the 19th-20th century all have an abundance of hornpipes, a lot by the way seem to have been copied from English an Scotch collections. Ryan's Mammoth collection, compiled in the 1880 in America is full of them too.
It is based on this, safe enough to assume that the greater body of native hornpipes was composed after the mid 19th century and no consort music in sight.

A lot of names of hornpipes point to a certain era too: The City of Savannah (and othe famous steamers that had tunes named after them), The High Level (bridge), The Locomotive etc etc, these are not the native Irish compositions though, they are more like The plains of Boyle (AKA Roscommon International Airport)

Hornpipes and reels of all sorts of tonal ranges are in existence, no form is limited to a specific scale or range. In fact the tune that started this discussion: The Home Ruler, spans from low A on the fiddle to high b.

(In Ryan's Mammoth by the way there is one tune called the Telephone Hornpipe, which is as good a name as the Firehose Reel but maybe I should post that in the 'name' thread)

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-12-13 11:17 ]

Mark_J · Post by **Mark_J** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 11:45 am

While I find that all of the information hear rings true and seems reasonably accurate, I find that some of it is really out of context. Bringing up the instrument "hornpipe" would have fit with "where can I get a hornpipe." Which would be followed by paying Lark in the Morning $519 for an instrument that would clear all self-respecting traditional musicians out of a session.

Since it was not a comparison between buying hornpipes and fishing reels, but a request of how to determine the differencewhat the difference between the rhythm of hornpipes and reels, I feel it is a dis-service to provide information that is not about those types of tunes. Mind you, I enjoyed the information, but it would confuse anyone by answering a question that that they did not ask.

As far as being constructive, I'd like to try to make some suggestions for what kind of recordings to listen to (study), and some of the things to listen for. While the Chieftains are a great band, they are (have become more commercial than "pure drop" (Pure Drop, in my understanding refers to pure traditional music without all the show and flair of some more commercial or contemporary influences). All of the musicians in the band have achieved great levels of virtuosity in thier playing; which they can and do express in any way they choose (I think Matt Malloy will be dead for over 200 years and flute players will still ask "how did he do that?" after listening to the music he recorded slowed down for the 500th time. I don't think bands from the likes of the Chieftains (at least after 1,2,3, &4), Solas, Dervish, and the Bothy Band should be used for beginners as an initial path to study the music. They play with great personal fredom that they earned through years of hard work. For BEGINNERS, I feel that their music is better suited for INSPIRATION than INSTRUCTION.

I would suggest that recordings that play slower and closer to the core of the Tradition are better study tools.
I'd suggest artists like. . .
Planxty (any)
Jack and Fr. Charlie Coen (Branch Line)
Josie McDermott (Darby's Farewell
Elizabeth Crotty (concertina music from west Clare)
Gearoid O hAllmhurain (any)
Seamus Ennis (any)
. . . because the play at an enjoyable tempo and they don't spellbind your ears with ornamentation. I also think that most of the tune recordings for tutor sets play with a good rhythm and you can really feel the tunes well.

Reels can be played with a straight and even tempo or with swing. Some people feel that starts to make them sound like hornpipes, but to each his own. Hornpipes are generally played slower (by us mortals). The is usually a greatly exagerated swing to them. In a four beat measure, the first and third beats are lengthend and the second and fourth beats are shortened. Tripplets that are tossed into hornpipes quite often. A number of beginners have told me that they can't tell the difference between jigs and hornpipes and I can only imagine that the tripplets do the trick there. I know that even a beginner should feel the swing in both types of tunes.

Listen more to good slower music. Don't wory about the sheet music until you can hear the difference, as it may be more confusing than helpful. Learning what the music sounds like ought to come first before learning to play it.

Now as far as the Chieftains go, I'm not going to be the one to tell Matt Malloy that he can't play that hornpipe so fast. I'm going to sit back in my chair and enjoy the performance. . .

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 12:55 pm

That makes a lot more sense, as far as jigs vs hornpipes go there is a particular area where the 12/8 jigs meet the hornpipes where it gets a bit hard to differentiate between the two, the turn of the Independent Hornpipes which moves mostly in triplets 'fall's easily into 12/8.

I would again point to the three last notes of each part for the best clue. And listen a lot.

I am not sure though Seamus Ennis is beginners material, I know pipemaker Geoff Wooff put the record away for some years after hearing Ennis play The Boys of Bluehill, not your average pedestrian hornpipe treatment that! And another piper put away his instrument for years after hearing the Ennis version of Jenny's welcome to Charlie. Frightning stuff. The best though.

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-12-13 13:57 ]

Paul Patrick · Post by **Paul Patrick** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 7:42 am

Thanks to all for your further responses - very helpful. Things are much clearer after reading them and then listening closely through my (wee small) stack of cds.

MarkJ, thanks for the suggested listening. I agree with you on the inspiration / instruction bit - in fact I'm learning from L.E. McCullough's tutor+cd for that very reason. But I'll definitely look into the artists you have noted, since my goal is to play (as close as I can get, anyway) straight traditional (pure drop?) and I'd like to hear as much of that sort of music as I can.

Thanks again,
Paul