Out of curiosity...

Crysania · Post by **Crysania** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 1:51 pm

This is only semi on topic...but it's something I'm somewhat curious about and wondering if I'm the only one who's had this happen.

When I was younger, I wanted to play the flute and tried a standard headjoint for a modern classical flute. I wasn't able to make a sound and ended up as a clarinet player. I had to take flute as a tech instrument in college (oh gosh, about 10 years ago now) and it took me nearly a month to even make a sound on it. I practiced all semester and by the end, I could play maybe an octave and it sounded HORRIBLE (I passed the class as a pity case). I was told, all along, that I'd never be a flute player...that my mouth just wasn't set up right for it. For the past 10 years, I've occasionally tried playing people's flutes and I always make a wispy barely there sound.

So along comes Irish music...and at a session last November, someone talked me into trying to make a sound on his Irish flute (wood, had maybe 6 keys on it)...I finally did. And shock...I made a decent sound. Now I have an Alan Mount flute that I'm working on and I'm actually getting better, producing a fairly decent sound that doesn't have a TON of air in it.

So do I just have a block when it comes to the standard classical flute or is there really such a huge difference in embouchure that it could make one possible and one not?

~Crysania

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:36 pm

It's been my experience that

--you can't judge how good a flute player someone will be by their first attempts at making a sound on the headjoint, and

--almost anyone who doesn't have a structural problem with their face or lips can learn to make a good sound on flute.

I remember when I was going through middle school and first hit band, they were telling kids with big lips that they couldn't play flute. I didn't like that then, and it still irks me to remember it.

Ever heard of Hubert Laws?

--James

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:52 pm

I think I mentioned once that I didn't play
flute as a youngster because my
orthodontist said it would shorten
my upper lip. Waited till I was 60
to start, I'm too ugly now
to care.

There's a special ring in the nether world
reserved for orthodontists.

I've heard it said that it's harder
to get a sound out of an irish flute
than the classical flute. So there!
You're a genuis! Best

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:55 pm

Crysania, I've never gotten a sound out of a silver flute, and I've never had a problem with anything else, including little bamboo flutes I used to make.

James, what about Hubert Laws? Did someone tell him he'd never play a flute? They told Charlie Parker that his fingers were too short to play the sax, and they told John Coltrane his were too long. I think "they" don't know as much as they think.

Crysania · Post by **Crysania** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:05 pm

jim stone wrote:
I've heard it said that it's harder
to get a sound out of an irish flute
than the classical flute. So there!
You're a genuis! Best

Somehow that wouldn't surprise me...it was supposed to be harder to get noise out of a piccolo than a classical flute...and I got a sound out of the picc long before I got sound out of a flute. I definitely wouldn't call me a genius! Maybe my mouth is just set up better for a flute without a lip plate, etc. Who knows? lol

~Crysania

Crysania · Post by **Crysania** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:06 pm

chas wrote:Crysania, I've never gotten a sound out of a silver flute, and I've never had a problem with anything else, including little bamboo flutes I used to make.

James, what about Hubert Laws? Did someone tell him he'd never play a flute? They told Charlie Parker that his fingers were too short to play the sax, and they told John Coltrane his were too long. I think "they" don't know as much as they think.

Oh yay! Maybe I'm not alone in this...maybe there IS something to it!

As for Hubert Laws...I have to admit, it's a name I've never heard before, so I'm curious about him.

~Crysania

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:11 pm

Crysania wrote:As for Hubert Laws...I have to admit, it's a name I've never heard before, so I'm curious about him.

The coolest of the jazz flutists. Been known to play Classical in major orchestras too, when in need of $

http://www.hubertlaws.com/

kevin m. · Post by **kevin m.** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:55 pm

glauber wrote:
Crysania wrote:As for Hubert Laws...I have to admit, it's a name I've never heard before, so I'm curious about him.
The coolest of the jazz flutists. Been known to play Classical in major orchestras too, when in need of $

http://www.hubertlaws.com/

Some Cool Cat Jazz Flutists (in no particular order);
Roland Kirk
Eric Dolphy
Sam Most
James Moody
Yusef Lateef
Sam Rivers
Julius Hemphill
Oliver Lake
James Newton

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:08 pm

I used to say that when i grow up i want to play like Herbie Mann.
http://www.herbiemannmusic.com/
http://www.jimnewsom.com/HerbieMann.html
Too sad he passed away; i never met him.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:25 pm

As far as I know, nobody ever told Hubert Laws he'd never play because of his large lips.

The man does have some big lips...and he is also, as mentioned, one of the very best jazz flutists, absolutely a master of his art.

There is no limit to the number of voices in which he can make a flute speak, he can mimic trumpet, oboe, soprano sax, the human voice, whistling, and any number of other sounds on his flute.

--James

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:36 pm

I don't find the mechanics of different embouchure cuts or styles all that different, ultimately, although obviously they're designed to sound differently once you can get a sound from them and alter your embouchure appropriately.
My first experience on a flute (a cheap Bundy student flute) was a disaster; I was the only one that couldn't get it to sound. Now, regardless of size or shape, it's more a matter of focusing on how to get the best sound from it, rather than any sound, so I, too, wouldn't put much stock in what you used to not be able to do; whatever it was that prevented you from playing before seems to have passed. Work on a wooden flute, then go back - you'll be surprised how much easier a Boehm is.

James -- I'm amazed that old wives' tale was/is still around when you learned flute (the thick lips thing); I laughed uproariously when I read Quantz insisting the same thing, but I forgave him as an overly pompous, and quite dead, piece of work. Knew a thing or two, he did, but that wasn't one of them...
Gordon

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:48 pm

Well, hopefully the Myth of Thick Lips has died off since; I started playing flute at age 11 and am 38 now, so that puts it back a ways.

The only flute of mine that requires a markedly different embouchure is my German 8-key.

The rest, the Hamilton, the M&E flutes, the Seery, even the Sweet Baroque, and the Boehm system Gemeinhardt can be all played with a pretty similar approach as to embouchure, on the basic level anyway. There are things each one does better than the others; then there is the Hamilton, which is pretty much the High King of Flutes as far as I'm concerned.

--James

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:51 pm

chas wrote:Crysania, I've never gotten a sound out of a silver flute, and I've never had a problem with anything else, including little bamboo flutes I used to make.

James, what about Hubert Laws? Did someone tell him he'd never play a flute? They told Charlie Parker that his fingers were too short to play the sax, and they told John Coltrane his were too long. I think "they" don't know as much as they think.

They should be seethed in their own juices. Best

Crysania · Post by **Crysania** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:08 pm

Gordon wrote: so I, too, wouldn't put much stock in what you used to not be able to do; whatever it was that prevented you from playing before seems to have passed. Work on a wooden flute, then go back - you'll be surprised how much easier a Boehm is.

I'm not sure...I tried my best friend's flute about a week before I tried the Irish flute...and the same icky sound came out! Very strange...

~Crysania

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:39 am

peeplj wrote:Well, hopefully the Myth of Thick Lips has died off since; I started playing flute at age 11 and am 38 now, so that puts it back a ways.

The only flute of mine that requires a markedly different embouchure is my German 8-key.

The rest, the Hamilton, the M&E flutes, the Seery, even the Sweet Baroque, and the Boehm system Gemeinhardt can be all played with a pretty similar approach as to embouchure, on the basic level anyway. There are things each one does better than the others; then there is the Hamilton, which is pretty much the High King of Flutes as far as I'm concerned.

--James

Interestingly, I've been playing my German flute more than my Hamilton lately; the Hammy certainly is the better flute, but there's something about the antique that just makes it worth the extra effort. Other than ease-of-play (on the Hammy), I still don't approach the embouchures all that differently. I spend the most time on my baroque, and find that the smaller-holed tight focus I use on that instrument helps with the big embouchured Pratten, German and Boehm flute alike.
Hmm.. 38... I think I picked up my first wooden flute around that age..

Gordon