tight triplets?

meir · Post by **meir** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:14 pm

do people commonly do tight triplets (by tonguing) on whistle? or is it just a uilleann pipes thing?

thanks

meir

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:20 pm

The pipers I know tend to do the same kind of closed hole fingering tricks on whistle as they do on pipes (some flute players too), yet the bottom is always open, but you can get a similar effect. That's why piper's whistling is somewhat unique sounding I think.

johnz · Post by **johnz** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:50 pm

Well, I never had the... oh, wrong thread. Sorry
Take care, Johnz

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:14 pm

I have never mastered any of the "double tonguing" techniques to get the tight effect.

I understand that you can either switch from the tip of the tongue just above the teeth to the back of the tongue against the soft pallette and back again, or pass the tip of the tongue over the end of the fipple rapidly.

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:39 pm

In the older tradition, I understand that it's more desirable to not tongue the whistle at all. A lot of good whistle players do though, and Scottish whistle players do it a lot.

A really fine whistle player I know, and who has done solo recorder peformances with symphony backup in San Diego, got me started and described tonguing like this: the two basics are the harder sounding "ta" with the tip of the tongue, and the softer sounding "ca" done with the back of the tongue, or softer yet with the stomach and throat muscles kinda like a gentle cough. The "da" is just a little softer than the "ta."

I heard Frankie Gavin play the whistle and flute once and he never tongued either one at all. Mary Bergin would though, tastefully that is.

When I say the pipers I've heard tend to use the same closed hole fingering on the whistle, I don't mean that they tongue the triplet too, it's just a different kind of flutter that I don't hear normal whistle players doing.

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:51 pm

Lorenzo wrote:normal whistle players

I can say that I have never met one of those.... Do they actually exist????

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:57 pm

Okay, how about "unpiped?" (as in unplugged)

Tyghress · Post by **Tyghress** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:01 pm

I was listening to the Coleman CDs, and had just mentioned to Tyghre that his triplets (on fiddle) are wide open...very different sound from what I'm used to hearing, and not all of it due to the reproduction of a scratchy 78 rpm. Not sure if its a sound I want to try to emulate.

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 9:11 am

Quite a few whistle players use triple tonguing, but I'd say that in nearly all cases the effect they produce is much closer to staccato triplets used by fiddle players (either "trebling", involving three repeated notes, or runs involving two or three different notes) rather than pipering tight triplets.

You can hear a couple of examples of whistlers doing it at our transcriptions page: http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/index.html - check out the tunes by Joe Skelton and Margaret Barry. The most "tight-tripletty" example is a tantalizing little movement on a A in the piece by Tommy McCarthy.

The most extreme example among players ancient and modern is Brian Finnegan of course. Then you have the likes of Sean Ryan, Larry Nugent and Carmel Gunning who froth up their rolls with triple-tonguing.

Other players use triple tonguing in a much more restrained fashion. Listen carefully and you'll hear McGoldrick and Mick O'Brien throw one in here and there, or Vinnie Kilduff throw them in a bit more frequently.

As Lorenzo hinted, opinions are divided as to the tastefulness of this use of tonguing. Many traditional musicians including some of the best whistle players don't like it at all, at all. Be aware.

Triple-tonguing has been discussed here a few times in the past. Here are some threads:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=63

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=571

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=4840

Steve

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:18 am

I suggest t ospeak of staccato triplets as the tight triplets on the pipes are a technique that isn't as such achievable on the whistle. You can imitate it by tongueing but it's something definitely different.

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:25 am

Just as an aside... no mystery here, tonguing is what Classical flutists do all the time:

single-tonguing = tu-tu-tu (good for stacatto runs)
double tonguing = tu-ku-tu-ku or te-re-te-re (for a jumpier feel)
triple tonguing = tu-ku-tu tu-ku-tu tu-ku-tu... (only seen in groups of triplets)

Keep your throat as open and unconstricted as possible. Of course the vowels (u or e) are not voiced, they're just a guide to how to configure the inside of your mouth. For betst results, think of the "French" u (almost an y), rather than the English one.

g

Eldarion · Post by **Eldarion** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:33 am

Lorenzo wrote:In the older tradition, I understand that it's more desirable to not tongue the whistle at all.

I'm very puzzled as to which older tradition this is.. :roll: I find this statement quite vague and in my opinion, a bit undersubstantiated? Quite a few begining players tell me this and I have the impression that they're just saying what they read on the board.

Lorenzo wrote:I heard Frankie Gavin play the whistle and flute once and he never tongued either one at all. Mary Bergin would though, tastefully that is.

Frankie Gavin's whistling, and very more so his flute playing is influenced by old Sligo flute and fiddle players. Instead of tonguing, he uses glottals for articulation on the whistle instead, much like the likes of John McKenna and Tom Morrison would do on the flute. Its quite common for northern Irish flute players to play whistle like this especially, good examples being Desi Wilkinson and Fintan Vallely.

jluckett · Post by **jluckett** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:41 am

glauber wrote:Just as an aside... no mystery here, tonguing is what Classical flutists do all the time:

single-tonguing = tu-tu-tu (good for stacatto runs)
double tonguing = tu-ku-tu-ku or te-re-te-re (for a jumpier feel)
triple tonguing = tu-ku-tu tu-ku-tu tu-ku-tu... (only seen in groups of triplets)

Thanks to Brother Steve's website, I've had no issues with single, double or triple tonguing. But then I saw the "te-re-te-re" thing here, and decided to try that one. I spent about ten minutes trying to get it to work, but only got very slight tone changes with the "re".

Is it possible to make an "r" sound that changes anything about how the tin whistle sounds? It works on my flute, but doesn't seem to make much difference on the whistle.