Anyone play Baroque Flute?

kevin m. · Post by **kevin m.** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:31 am

Since getting my one keyed boxwood flute by J.C. Haynes off E-Bay a fortnight ago,I've been spending some time reading up on Baroque flute,and listening to some of the music.
There really are some beautiful reproduction instruments being made (drool!).
I have obtained a copy of Jan. Boland's 'method...' book which has some good exercises and easy tunes in it,and also Quantz's 'Versuch' for a historical perspective-his hints on flute playing and flute care are as relevant today as they were in 1752,a good read!
On the listening side, I've bought Konrad Hunteler's 'The Denner Flute' which is fantastic.Hunteler plays 12 fantasias for solo flute on an original flute made by Jacob Denner c.1720 (!).
Also,I bought Barthold Kuijken's 'Solo pour la Flute traversiere' which again is material by the likes of Bach,Vivaldi,Hotteterre etc.,written,or adapted for Flute.
Now then,a couple of questions.
I know that some of you have already expressed an interest in Baroque music.What instruments do you play? Do you play in groups/consorts or mainly solo? What pitch?
Can you recommend any further listening?-I am interested in recordings made on Traverso's-NOT modern Boehm flutes.
AND,perhaps most importantly- Do you mix playing 'Irish flute' and Baroque?
If so,what effect does this have on your playing,and technique?
Do you find that playing both types of music,with their different techniques make you a better musician overall,or is there the danger that you end up confusing the two approaches and end up playing 'cod' Baroque and 'cod' Irish flute (we,ve all heard the saying 'Jimmy Galway is a Flautist from Ireland,but he's NOT an 'Irish flute'player'!)?
I've already discovered the very good 'Yahoo earlyflute message board',but thought I'd enquire at 'home' on 'Chiff..'

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:24 am

Lotta questions, there. Probably won't get to them all.
I started on the traverso seriously about 6 months ago, with a pretty firm grounding in Irish flute, and some ancient history on classical (modern) flute and recorder. I started on the Aulos Grenser, while a boxwood A415 was on order. I haven't played the Aulos much since the boxwood arrived in late July.
I found that, initially, my playing on a large embouchured flute, sans tonguing, suffered from baroque playing, as I was (and am still) practicing and learning the one-key several hours a day. I let the established ITM slide, both from temporarily lost interest (and a recent lack of paid work) and my new enthusiasm for baroque music. I studied briefly with a teacher so that I would learn the right techniques (along with the Boland book), and had to temporarily "unlearn" some very muscular approaches I used habitually on Irish flute. I stopped the lessons only due to lack of funds, and hope to return for a few sometime in the near future.
Once the playing ability on the traverso stabilized, I went back to ITM for an additional hour or so a day and found that, while it took a few days to regain the old stamina, in many ways I think I'm playing ITM crisper and more articulately, even using strictly standard ITM approaches. Returning then to the traverso, conversely, my baroque playing seems to have been embolded in turn.
So, yes, I think playing both will eventually feed the other. But it will interfere for a bit, as the techniques -- though both played on similar instruments and often sharing similar note patterns -- are often polar opposites in terms of approach, style and mind-set, and the focus of the embouchure is completely different.

As for listening, my personal favorite right now is a 2CD set of Frans Bruggen on the traverso and recorder (and a few great oboe tracks a well) of the complete Handel Sonatas (I like Handel a lot). I also listen to a Telemann CD, Concerto da Camera, played by Wilbert Hazelzet.

I have played some Irish pieces on the traverso for fun, and I like the tonal difference it adds, but I try not to interchange techniques too much for now. I do throw in a few baroque techniques into my Irish playing, though, as I'm much further along on that front and I can use the occasional deviations for color. The baroque playing I try to keep a bit purer.

As for the flute itself, I play a Willem Bueker replica in figured boxwood at A415, made by Simon Polak in Holland. It is a beautiful flute, in tune well up into the 3rd octave, and I frankly have trouble putting it down for the much more athletic Hammy Pratten I use for ITM. I can't say enough about this flute, capable of playing most anything written through the 18th c. into the 19th.
That's about it, for now.
Good luck with your playing,
Gordon

kevin m. · Post by **kevin m.** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 7:28 am

Thanks for your very detailed reply Gordon.
As you say,ITM flute and Baroque Traverso are very different mindsets-I wonder just how successfully I can balance the two?
I must add that the one keyed flute I have is a 19th c. playing at 440hz,so isn't a 'real' Traverso as such.
I have looked at Simon Polak's website(more than once!),and have to say that I'm very envious of your Beuker replica.
If I was going to buy a replica,at some point,it would probably be by one of the European makers,as by the time excise and VAT etc. is added on to an imported instrument from outside the E.U.,you are looking at adding an extra 21% to it's retail price.
Do you play in a 415 tuned ensemble,or solo on your Polak?
I'd be very interested in trying out a 415 instrument-the Aulos Stainsby copy gets some good write ups,though at $550/£399 for a plastic instrument it's not cheap,so I reckon that I'd be better off sticking with what I've got and saving up for a Polak,or similar,if I truly got the Traverso bug.
Then again,I'm hoping to get my Davey Stephenson Uilleann practice set soon,so trying to learn Baroque fluting and piping at the same time may just push me right over the edge!

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:25 am

There is a Yahoo group called earlyflute where traverso makers and players congregate. There's a small amount of affectation (think powdered wigs), but also a lot of very helpful people there, and it's also a good place to get to know makers, if (i.e. when) you decide to buy more flutes later.

The woodenflute mail list has, i guess, about 1/3 traverso players and 2/3 Irish flute players. Also a good place to get to know makers.

For makers, i recommend Rod Cameron and Clive Catterall. The Aulos plastic flutes are also very nice, especially the one in A=415, which imitates an unusual ivory model.

kevin m. · Post by **kevin m.** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:29 am

Hi Glauber,
Have you played Clive's flutes,or the Aulos Stainsby yourself?
I know you mentioned previously that you had a Traverso on order from Rod Cameron.
On the subject of the Earlyflute message board, I liked the way you mentioned that it was a good place to get to know makers for when I decide to get more flutes (PLURAL!)

FOA is a lot more costly than WHOA,-I'm seriously considering 'downsizing' my whistle collection,or should I say 'rationalising'as I have a few that I don't play,and another Sindt set on the way (hopefully soon).

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:15 am

kevin m. wrote:Have you played Clive's flutes,or the Aulos Stainsby yourself?

I've played both Auloses and liked the white on A=415 (whichever one that is) better than the black on A=440. But they're both good, better than some wood flutes that cost a lot more.

Haven't played anything by Clive yet, but his prices are good, his flutes look gorgeous, and i generally like what i hear from and about him.

I've played a tablefull of Rod Cameron flutes and was very impressed. I love the sound of his Bressan model, but will probably buy a H Grenser because i need it to play in both 415 and 440.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:31 pm

Don't play traverso.........yet.

Just wondering, Kevin: what do you think of your Bear-o-cue prize? How's it sound? Is the technique far different from the trad approach?

And Glauber, shouldn't that be "Auloi"?

kevin m. · Post by **kevin m.** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:33 pm

I was daft enough to prematurely send a clip of me murdering 'Carolan's dowry AKA Capt Studley' on the Haynes to 'Tinwhistle tunes'.
I wasn't well acquainted with the flute,and the cork (which has since been replaced)was set way too far down the head,mucking up the octave tuning.
I'm pleased to say that now that the flute has been oiled,greased,repadded and re-corked,it's playing quite well-even if I'm not(!) :roll:
I think that buying this flute has set me off on a learning curve-I am actually doing scales and EXERCISES rather than launching straight into tunes,I'm reading in-depth tutor books which is no bad thing:the only other flute tutor of anykind that I have is Fintan Vallely's 'Timber' which,though worthy,is a bit basic.
I'm certainly learning a lot about flute history,fluteplaying and general musicianship.Also,I'm practicing more,so I think that my playing of my Dixon polymer has improved because of the Haynes.
The use of the key takes a little getting accustomed to,but it's 'getting there'!
So, all in all,I would say that it was £280 well spent ($357,plus excise taxes etc.)

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:32 pm

Kevin,
At the moment, I have only played in a 415 ensemble a few times, and, of course, I played with my teacher in flute duets and/or her on harpsichord. At the time, I was borrowing her Von Huene 415, and practicing on my Grenser at 440. Without the lessons and away from the contacts therein, I mostly play baroque solo, for now.
The Aulos Stansby model at 415 is far superior, BTW, to the Grenser 440, bordering on par with many wooden traversos and better than many. Not cheap for a plastic flute, but a really nice flute, nonetheless. The Grenser, at 440 is a workable flute, in tune and not a bad flute to learn on, though I'm not sure I'd want to actually perform with it.
Re, Clive Catteral, he is a really nice, smart guy; I've had many email conversations with him on and off the Wooden and Early flute lists, but have never had the opportunity to try one of his flutes. He seems to very much know what he's doing and also seems to truly understand and love the time period and the flutes he's developed; I almost bought from him, before buying the Polak, but his one replica at 415 (although I understand he's perfecting another), a Potter, was not what I had in mind and so I did not. I am a bit interested in what he calls his "ordinary" flute, essentially a baroque re-configured in 440, with a more trad bottom end, because I'd love a traverso in modern pitch that doesn't sound weak (as most do with a 440 corps), but -- as with my lessons -- finances won't allow that purchase for some time to come.
Gordon

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:09 pm

We must take up a collection for you, Gordon,
so that you can write more of these posts.

kevin m. · Post by **kevin m.** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:01 am

Thanks for the info. Gordon-all helpful stuff.
I've checked Clive's website several times (his info on flute care is very good),he certainly seems to know his stuff.
Unfortunately,his 'Potter' model isn't quite what I have in mind either,though it looks well made-that key in particular,is very nice.
Sorry about your financial situation,esp. when you've been forced to give up your lessons- I'll bet that
we all have had the unfortunate conundrum of balancing finances against our musical wants/ambitions.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:16 am

No self-pity, here, folks! I have some great flutes and plenty of time to play.
Gordon

kevin m. · Post by **kevin m.** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:28 am