Pennywhistle in English Traditional Music

[lilymaid]

It seems to me that there would be a good deal of whistle use in English traditional music. It is pretty common in Irish and Scottish folk, and those traditions have had, I’d think, considerable contact with the English tradition. Clarkes are even made in England. However, outside of Kate Rusby recordings I cannot think of any I have heard in English folk.

Does anyone have more information on this subject?

[E = Fb]

As their society became more urbane the English came to despise folk music. To this day most Englishmen are not particularly proud of their traditional music and dance. It's a sad state of affairs.

[cj]

There are some English folk tunes in a book called Step One: Play Pennywhistle.

[lilymaid]

As their society became more urbane the English came to despise folk music. To this day most Englishmen are not particularly proud of their traditional music and dance. It's a sad state of affairs.

Perhaps we should count that as all the more reason to play it, if any of us feel so inclined. Some of it is really quite lovely and somebody ought to enjoy it.

I agree, it is very sad. I think folk music is an important part of any culture and ought to be preserved, and, for that matter, played. I'd like to hear what somebody English has to say on the subject.

There are some English folk tunes in a book called Step One: Play Pennywhistle.

I actually have that book, but it bored me, so I never got all the way through it. I shall have to look at it again.

[cj]

I actually have that book, but it bored me, so I never got all the way through it. I shall have to look at it again.

Yeah, I agree. I haven't come back to it much either. I think (gasp!) recorder music has more English folk. You could get a C whistle and play music written for soprano recorder, just an idea (if you haven't done that already).

[cowtime]

Look in the 1982 Episcopal Hymnal. Then look up the hymns by Ralph Vaughn Williams. He took common well known English folk tunes and put lyrics to them suitable for hymns. There are quiet a few of these and many are great on whistle. I bet you'll recognize more than a few tunes.

[Zubivka]

It seemed to me the baroque redorker was from German influence, and a newer entry (or re-entry) on the English scene than the 19th century flageolet.
Barring the numerous keys on the elaborate models, it fingers like a whistle; rather, the popular tin whistle fingers like its uppity wooden cousin with its fancy French name...
Flageolets seem to come in D and G just as often. If the English invented the modern whistle fingering, precisely the flageolet's, and given this instrument has the same limited tonal range as our whistles, they must have had a répertoire for it?
If not, wouldn't there be at least the Tabor pipe's inventory?

Sheesh... where's Turner when you need lime juice? :roll:

[Redwolf]

Morris music works well on the whistle...probably because a lot of it is intended to be played on the tabor pipe.

Also, quite a lot of the music in Robin Williamson's "The Pennywhistle Book" is English.

Redwolf

[Chuck_Clark]

What's funny is how so much of that "forgotten" folk music wasn't lost at all - merely transplanted to the Southern Mountains of the US.

No whistles, though, that I know of.

[lilymaid]

Well, there is still English folk music, anyway, Eliza Carthy and Kate Rusby being the more contemporary examples. I've have heard whistle in Kate Rusby, but I do believe that is likely her rather Scottish husband's influence. Does anyone know of any other recordings of English folk with either whistle, flageolet, or recorder? I can't say I can think of any.

[Wombat]

As their society became more urbane the English came to despise folk music. To this day most Englishmen are not particularly proud of their traditional music and dance. It's a sad state of affairs.

The situation is much more complicated than this. There have been folk revivals in England, Scotland and Ireland beginning in the early 60s and continuing to this day. Arguably, much of the modern Irish scene got an impetus from Irish expats in London making their contribution to the folk scene there in the 60s. Of course, the folk scene in England is small compared to Multinational McCulture but I doubt it's much smaller than in Scotland or Ireland. Counting Scots (and Irish) who contributed mainly in England here's a short list of people and bands you should be aware of going back to the start of the revival in the 60s. Some of these have been surprisingly successful outside the narrow confines of folk club circles: Bert Jansch, Ewan McColl, John Renburn, the Incredible String Band, Anne Briggs, Sandy Denny, Fairport Convention, Pentangle, Steeleye Span, Richard and Linda Thompson, The Watersons, Martin Carthy, June Tabor, Martin Simpson, Nick Jones, Billy Bragg, Kathryn Tickell, John Kirkpatrick, Kate Rusby, The Barely Works, The Oyster Band .... Get the picture? some of these are close to pure drop too, either all or some of the time. This groups merges with very pure drop people at one end, old English folklore revivalists in the middle and singer/songwriter types at the other. In lots of regional areas there are/were wonderful vernacular performers with strong local reputations, many of whom recorded. My point: it's there if you look for it and you don't have to look far.

As for whistle, not much. Robin Williamson (ex Incredible string band) issued a good whistle songbook which includes a lot of English songs. John Renburn has used recorders on record. Kate Rusby uses low whistle.

[yuzz]

An Englishman here!!

Whistles are hardly ever seen (or heard) in the local folk clubs here and haven't been for as long as I can remember, which is since the sixties.

My own introduction to folk music was at the all-night sessions at Les Cousins, a long extinct dingy basement in Greek Street, Soho - that's London, of course. The main fare served up there was really blues and acoustic guitar influenced rather than English folk influenced. The acts making their name at this time were such as Davy Graham, Bert Jansch, John Renbourn et al. Whilst they occasionally tipped their respective hats at English (and Scottish and Irish) folk music their main influence always seemed to be more American than European. In fact the London scene at that time even included American ex-pats Paul Simon and Jackson C. Frank amongst others.

Quite a few of the top acts then were Scottish rather than English, people such as Davy Graham, Bert Jansch and even Robin Williamson of the Incredible String Band (who did/does play whistles) is a Scot.

The scene really promoted guitar virtuosos rather than English folk music.

However, there are still real English folk exponents to be found. In my own area for instance the Copper family who if you get lucky can be experienced singing in a real English pub in Rottingdean (near Brighton). And it truly is an experience. However, not a whistle to be seen.

I'd suggest that the flageolet was in it's heyday much more likely to be found in English gentlemen's drawing rooms than on the streets and in the pubs where the real folk music was (and still is to some extent) happening.

As a nation, we English have almost abandoned our own traditional music which is perhaps surprising to the rest of the world as we seem to be seen as the protectors of all things traditional. Even in the majority of rural folk clubs you're much more likely to hear Irish, Scottish and American music than English. Of course, we're all British now.

Martin

[Wombat]

Yuzz is, of course, right about the importance of guitar in English 'folk' music since the 60s and about the influence of non-English performers. I don't accept that the situation is all that dire however. To be sure, all but the most pure drop performers mix in Scottish, Irish and American influences. But we accept guitar, bouzouki, low whistle and bodhran in Irish music today, even though none would have been present a few decades ago. Surely, then, we can accept that traditional English music can be guitar accompanied. What otherwise has Martin Carthy been doing since the 60s?

[SteveK]

I got together with a r#%^*#$r player to try to accompany some of her English dance music. My impression was that a lot of it was more chromatic that Irish music and might not be very whistle friendly. Some was in flat keys too. I had a quick look at some of the tune books at Richard Robinson's tune site. There are four that contain some English music-The Winder Manuscript, Aird's Airs, John of the Greeny Cheshire Way and The Fiddler of Helperby. There are a lot of tunes and I just sampled a few to see how they might fit on the whistle. The Winder Manuscript looks the most promising. John of Greeny contains triple hornpipes and many look OK. Some look very simple. Go to this page and click on Tunebook Lists at the top of the page if you want to look at these books. Also check the Nottingham Folk Music Database
http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~ef//music/database.htm

I have a book of Playford tunes too but I don't play them very often. Some of this is kind of boring compared to Irish music, particularly when played solo. Imaginative arrangements with a band can make them more interesting. A local Ontario band which plays a lot of English music is Nonsuch, a three piece band led by Brad McEwen. There was an English band at Goderich this year called Crucible. They were wonderful but didn't restrict themselves to English music. Really wonderful four-part harmonies. There was no whistle in that band though.
http://www.cruciblemusic.co.uk/

Steve

[Wombat]

Yuzz is, of course, right about the importance of guitar in English 'folk' music since the 60s and about the influence of non-English performers. I don't accept that the situation is all that dire however. To be sure, all but the most pure drop performers mix in Scottish, Irish and American influences. But we accept guitar, bouzouki, low whistle and bodhran in Irish music today, even though none would have been present a few decades ago. Surely, then, we can accept that traditional English music can be guitar accompanied. What otherwise has Martin Carthy been doing since the 60s?

Oi! Who's this bleedin' Aussie geezer, tellin' the Poms their traditions are healthy, eh? Next 'ell be tellin' us what a great cricket team we got.