Left hand pain

herbivore12 · Post by **herbivore12** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:15 pm

Okay, so I was hoping this issue would resolve with time, but it hasn't, and I'd appreciate any feedback.

I have a McGee Rudall copy, which I really like for its playing characteristics: tone, volume, responsiveness, and so on. However, I'm experiencing pain in my left hand which I've not had in playing any other flute. I am starting to wonder if this is due to the slimness of the McGee flute, or to some other factor of design.

I can hold and play my polymer -- a larger-bodied flute than the McGee -- for as long as I like. I can play my bamboo flutes in various keys comfortably for as long as I care to do so. But after perhaps fifteen-twenty minutes on the McGee, I start getting painful cramps, mostly in the center of my left hand. I've tried varying my playing position a bit, to no real effect. Piper's grip helps, but I much prefer the traditional grip; just don't really like piper's grip on my left hand, and I don't need it for any of my other flutes.

If I stop playing for a few minutes and stretch, I can start again, but the problem recurs again, on schedule. I'm careful to stay as relaxed as possible, to keep the flute balanced in a Rockstro-like grip pretty much exactly as illustrated on Brad's webpage, and Rob Greenaway's, and as I've said, I don't have the problem on other flutes. When I've played other folks' flutes -- mostly Pratten-ish styles -- I also haven't had this problem. By the way, the pain seem not to be related to the thumb, but something in the way my fingers relate to the flute; my thumb can move around pretty freely and comfortably in the grip I use, and the discomfort seems unrelated to thumb position.

Is it possible that this is just an ergonomics problem, and that the McGee is just not my ideal mate in this regard? That would be sad, because I love the sound of the McGee, and would hate to have to give it up. On the other hand, I'd also like to be able to play as long as I can on other flutes without suffering the pretty bad pain I can't seem to shake. (It's like thinking you've met the woman of your dreams, but then finding out there's some minor problem which precludes your spending the rest of your lives together!)

I'll ask a couple players locally if I'm doing something weird that I shouldn't be doing, or am unaware of doing, but just in case anyone here has experience with something similar: What should I try?

--Aaron

skh · Post by **skh** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:20 pm

How exactly does the flute that hurts differ from the others? Holes further apart, nearer together, outside diameter of the body larger or smaller, etc.

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:21 pm

You must send that McGee to me immediatelly, for evaluation!

It could be any of the things you mentioned. I think you can learn how to play it so it doesn't hurt (much). In my case, sometimes a slight change in the angle of the headjoint (rolled towards me) makes a large difference in the pain.

Ask Terry too, see what he says.

You may have to leave that polymer flute aside for a while, while your hands learn how to hold the new one.

g

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:23 pm

Just a suggestion: have someone photograph your left hand as you play first one flute and then the other.

Compare the photographs and see if there is any visible difference in the position or angle of your hand or fingers on the flute that hurts.

--James

herbivore12 · Post by **herbivore12** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:28 pm

skh wrote:How exactly does the flute that hurts differ from the others? Holes further apart, nearer together, outside diameter of the body larger or smaller, etc.

It's more slender in outside diameter than most other wooden flutes I've played. I don't have a problem with finger stretch or covering the holes; I have a couple bamboos with greater stretch and larger holes, and don't have problems with them. That's why, if it's an ergonomics issue, the only problem I can think of is the flute's more slender profile.

Interestingly, I can play smaller. slimmer flutes (bamboos in F, G and G-minor) with no problem, and larger flutes with nearly identical, or even more challenging, finger-spread and hole sizes, also without the pain. There's just something abot the way my body is relating to the combination of the McGee's slender body and hole layout that's not working with my left hand. Or -- probably more likely -- there's something I'm doing that's not letting my left hand get comfortable with the McGee. I just haven't figured it out, on my own.

herbivore12 · Post by **herbivore12** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:38 pm

glauber wrote:You must send that McGee to me immediatelly, for evaluation!

Man, you've really been trying to get your little doggy paws on other people's flutes, lately. You accidentally sit on yours or something?

I'll mess with the headjoint position and see what that does for me, and see if I can get someone to do what James suggested (photograph my hand on various flutes), if an experienced player can't immediately spot the problem.

In re: the headjoint: I do play with the headjoint rotated in towards me, since that seems to help me obtain an "Irish" sound from the flute, but maybe a couple degrees up or down will make a difference. I rotate it maybe 20 degrees toward me now, since that seems to give me the tone I'm after. But I'll adjust my embouchure or something if it'll mean less pain.

You may have to leave that polymer flute aside for a while, while your hands learn how to hold the new one.

Good point, but it's awfully nice to have the polymer around for those quick-toot-in-a-free-moment opportunities. And I've had the McGee for, what, four-five months (when'd I buy it from you, Eilam?). But maybe I should lay off the polymer for a while. Should I send it to you, Glauber, for safekeeping?

--Aaron

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:28 pm

No, i already have a polymer flute.

Anyway... i play with the hole turned more towards me than most people: i align the far edge of the blowhole with the center of the finger holes. This seems to be consistent with some Baroque flutes, and it works for me, but as you said, a couple of degrees makes (to me) a big difference in the pain.

I think there are 2 things that cause pain: gripping the flute with too much force or holding it at a bad angle.

You may be unconsciously using too much grip, coming from a heavier polimer flute (my polimer is a M&E, and it weighs a ton). You may even want to look into the "Rockstro Grip" as a way to balance the flute without using the left hand thumb. That's what i do, personally. (Hmmm, re-reading your first post i see you do too.)

Or the fact that the flute is thinner may be affecting the angle you hold it, and in this case turning the headjoint may help.

One of the perverse things about flutes is that the harder you try some things, the harder they become. You may be tensing up because you're expecting to feel pain, and that makes the pain come worse. I had a nice session once with Baroque flute player Janet See (a real genius and a great lovely lady) where we spent some time just holding the flute up in a comfortable way. This is related in some way to the Alexander method, whatever that is (maybe Google for it).

I'm very aware of these things because i have relatively small hands and i play a Pratten-inspired flute that was obviously designed by a Victorian long-fingered sadist. In comparison, the McGee is probably Rudall-inspired, and should be a joy to hold.

I'm sure you'll figure it out.

g

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:35 pm

Here's something on Alexander technique:

http://performancepage.com/articles/musicians/
(just a random Googling, not anybody i know, btw)

herbivore12 · Post by **herbivore12** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:48 pm

glauber wrote: You may even want to look into the "Rockstro Grip" as a way to balance the flute without using the left hand thumb. That's what i do, personally. (Hmmm, re-reading your first post i see you do too.)

Yep, I do. That's why I've been perplexed. More than perplexed, since it hurts! I'll try messing with the headjoint, per your suggestion; maybe there's something going on in the ergonomics that'll benefit from a change in the facio-dactyl relationship, or whatever one would call it. . . Labio-dactyl? Cranio-manual?

One of the perverse things about flutes is that the harder you try some things, the harder they become. You may be tensing up because you're expecting to feel pain, and that makes the pain come worse.

Could be. I've been working on consciously relaxing, because my fingers are much, much faster and accurate when I'm relaxed and loose. I don't think of my fingers as gripping the flute; they're just there to cover the holes, and the flute's balanced a la Rockstro. But I do still find myself tightening up, especially when learning a new tune or technique or something. High notes, too; for some reason, my brain sometimes thinks it ought to be easier to play at the top of the range if everything, not just the embouchure, tightens up . . . My brain has a mind of its own.

And I have an actor friend who's just earned his certification in Alexander Technique; maybe I'll hit him up for lessons; he'll be able to buy groceries, and maybe I'll get some good pointers about posture or body awareness from him.

I'm very aware of these things because i have relatively small hands and i play a Pratten-inspired flute that was obviously designed by a Victorian long-fingered sadist. In comparison, the McGee is probably Rudall-inspired, and should be a joy to hold.

Wanna trade? My joy-inducing McGee for your torturous Pratten?

Nah. I'll give this one a go for a while longer.

Hope you're right about figuring it out, in time. The McGee's very nice, super easy to play and a fine instrument.

--aaron

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:06 pm

I think you should definitely ask your friend for some Alexander advice. This stuff seems to really work and it has a cult-like following.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:14 pm

You are fortunate that it's just this one flute you
have pain with!

There is the option of making the flute thicker, I beleive.
There are putty like doodads that i've seen classical
flutists stick on their flutes to do that at the
left hand position because of hand pain. If you don't know
where to inquire, please let me know. Best

JGrant-Skerries · Post by **JGrant-Skerries** » Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:31 am

Don't forget that pain and tension in the hands can arise from small changes in the embouchure. Are you trying new positions or mouth shapes for the mcGee? The source of your problem may indeed be that the flute is slimmer than your others but perhaps you should look at the blowing end rather than your grip

I find that my hands getting sore is a sure sign of doing something wrong in the latest embouchure experiment. If the change in blowing means that a little extra pressure is required against the lips then this comes from the hands. My playing goes to pot if there is any tension in my hands. They have to be completely relaxed for precision and improvised variation.

Jim

Dana · Post by **Dana** » Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:25 am

jim stone wrote:You are fortunate that it's just this one flute you
have pain with!

There is the option of making the flute thicker, I beleive.
There are putty like doodads that i've seen classical
flutists stick on their flutes to do that at the
left hand position because of hand pain. If you don't know
where to inquire, please let me know. Best

The Bopep, or something like it might be in order for this slimmer flute, especially if you are unable to adjust to it any other way. Silver flutists with very large hands can have a real problem with the left hand cramping up. The flexing of the first finger seems to be the main culprit.

The only problem with the Bopep is that it's designed for the outer diameter of silver flutes. If nothing is commercially availible for wood flute, I've heard of people making something similar out of packing foam. A picture of the Bopep is availible at http://www.nrayworth.freeserve.co.uk/fl ... bopep.html

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Tue Aug 26, 2003 7:00 am

It sounds simple, but anytime you change flutes, even minor changes in thickness, hole distribution and head position relative to the hands will incrementally change the way you hold a flute. That incremental change (and sometimes not so incremental) might set off muscle cramps and pain. Basically, you want to hold the McGee exactly the same way you hold your other flute, and it isn't exactly the same, so your muscles are cramping, and possibly, the nerves are being pinched.
I don't think the solution is to fatten the McGee. This might help a bit, or it might not, depending on the hole spacings and other considerations. But more importantly, your hands are not "learning" to hold the actual McGee comfortably, and that's what you really want to do. So play the flute often, as your main flute, and adjust your hands for comfort as soon as the pain or cramping begins; concentrate on relaxing the muscles. A thinner flute is less "gripped" by the right hand; try pulling away from everywhere except the contact point (against your first finger ball-joint). If it really starts to hurt, put tje flute down and try again in a bit; pain is a warning that something, muscles or nerves, are being abused, and you don't want to mess up your hands long-term.
I find if you play any flute too much, your hands as much as your embouchure will take some time to readjust when you go back to your other flute(s). Find what works with the McGee, get that in your muscle-memory, and then switch back and forth if you like with your other flutes.
Or send the flute to Glauber, who really seems to want everyone's cast-offs...
Gordon

herbivore12 · Post by **herbivore12** » Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:06 am

Thanks for all the very sound advice, folks.

So, a couple more things: it does seem to be mostly a function of my left index finger, as Dana hinted. I do have large, broad hands, and my fingers are not extraordinarily flexible. They're nimble and fast enough, but not as flexible as many other folks'. Maybe it'll just take me longer to gain the flexibility to be comfortable bending that finger enough to cover that first tonehole and still be able to move it quickly and accurately.

Once the cramping/pinching starts, it spreads to effect the base of the thumb and what feels like the middle of my hand, deep in the tissue. Adjusting playing position doesn't help much, but stopping for a while and stretching and relaxing a bit does.

I have been playing the McGee almost exclusively, except for brief flings on a bamboo or, when time is short, the polymer, precisely because I wanted to adjust to this as my main flute (and because it's a much better instrument, in tone and response and ultimate satisfaction, than the polymer). I'd hoped the past few months would have seen me through that adjustment, but perhaps it'll take a bit more time.

Too, I'll ask some of the guys at session if they notice anything odd going on with my left hand, or if I'm unconsciously gripping the flute too hard or something. I've worked hard, from the beginning, on trying to hold the flute in balance and to keep the fingers free to do their thing, so I hope that's not what's going on. (Although, I suppose that'd at least give me a definitive goal to work on to resolve the problem. . .)

I'm writing a note to Terry McGee, as well, to see if anyone else he knows has had this problem, and if he has any suggestions. I supose, if worse comes to worst, I'll be able to sell the flute relatively quickly (a few people who've played it expressed interest in buying it, or ordering from Terry) and try my hand at a meatier flute.

I'll give it more time and try a few things, and let everyone know if I come across some breakthrough that might help others.

Cheers,

Aaron

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