OT: mind/body/consciousness questions from transplants ...

[Jerry Freeman]

This showed up in my email. I thought it might be relevant to some of the philosophical discussions we've been having (though I don't know how, exactly).

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Strange Phenomena Linked to Organ Transplants

Going into surgery, Catherine Beckman never imagined she would wake up with more than a heart. Neither did many other transplant recipients whose new organs were accompanied by foreign memories, eerie new personal preferences and unexplained emerging talents.

TRANSPLANTING MEMORIES will explore such phenomena firsthand through the stories of organ donor recipients on Saturday, July 19, at 9 PM ET on the Discovery Health Channel.

In TRANPLANTING MEMORIES, prominent medical experts attempt to explain why some organ recipients adopt these memories and emotions, also known as "cellular memories." While a handful of scientists are skeptical -- dismissing these strange phenomena as post-surgery stress or reaction to anti-organ rejection drugs -- they are also countered by a growing number of experts who believe cellular memories are indeed transplanted with organs.

Dr. Candace Pert, a pharmacologist and professor at Georgetown University believes the mind is not just in the brain, but also throughout the body. This school of thought could explain such strange transplant experiences.

"The mind and body communicate with each other through chemicals known as peptides," says Dr. Pert. "These peptides are found in the brain as well as in the stomach, muscles and all of our major organs. I believe that memory can be accessed anywhere in the peptide/receptor network. For instance, a memory associated with food may be linked to the pancreas or liver, and such associations can be transplanted from one person to another."

Other medical experts offer different explanations, and opine that it is not so much mystical as it is science, and a science that needs further exploration.

In TRANSPLANTING MEMORIES, viewers will see just how these phenomena manifest in organ recipients: an eight-year-old girl receives a heart of a murdered ten-year-old girl and her nightmares help solve the murder; a shy, reserved woman becomes more assertive and has vivid dreams of the donor she never met; and a man strangely picks up his donor's musical taste.

Organ transplantation is one of the greatest scientific accomplishments of the twentieth century, with more than 500,000 successful cases worldwide.

TRANSPLANTING MEMORIES discusses the theory supporting why a surprising number of transplant individuals receive something more than just the organ.

TRANSPLANTING MEMORIES is a co-production of Discovery Health Channel and Natural History New Zealand, Limited. Peter Hayden is executive producer for Natural History New Zealand, Limited. For Discovery Health Channel, the executive producer is Mark Poertner. Bob Reid is executive in charge of production.

Source: Discovery Health Channel

[Nanohedron]

Very intriguing. I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute directly to the issue as I successfully evaded scientific and medical studies during what passed for higher education in my misspent youth. What immediately came to mind, however, is the question I've often asked myself: could there be such a thing as genetic memory? This is re: my immediate recognition of ITM as something familiar (which in experience it was not) when I was very young.

How odd it would be -unsettling, even- to acquire bits of someone else's memories due to organ transplantation.

And to pin down the function of memory to peptides...kinda takes the romance out of the mystery of mind and memory, doesn't it?

[TonyHiggins]

Truly fascinating. There's much that people experience that goes unexplained or only explained according to the parameters of our belief systems. This is something that has intrigued me a long time. I grew up in the US and have lived with the western cultural belief system of science and orthodox Christianity. I currently work as a registered nurse for a gigantic hmo in an internal medicine clinic. I work closely with a lot of medical doctors, and I used to work as a chiropractor. I've seen the prejudices on both sides of the fence and worked on both sides of the fence getting first hand experience and seeing for myself what's what. Though there is some merging of these systems, many practitioners still look askance at the other and surely don't clearly understand what the other is doing or capable of doing.

I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church and have spent much time studying with Protestants and spent time with Buddhists, learned meditation, had Reiki attunements, and listened intently to people who claim to have channeled spirits, had encounters with supernatural beings (good and evil). I've had vivid specific dreams about insignificant events that came to pass with a day or two. I've searched for reasons/stimuli that could have caused the dream and after searching for any coincidence, concluded the dream could only be connected to the future event. (This has happened many times throughout my life.) My sister and her young children have seen apparitions in their house. I'm currently reading a book written in 1911 by Evans-Wentz, "The Fairy Faith in the Celtic Countries," where he takes down accounts of peoples' first hand accounts of encounters with "fairies." The author choses not to rule out the reality of their claims. A huge number of people in this country, including several totally reliable people I know say they've had 'out of body experiences.' I've been trying, myself, but, so far, no success.

There's much more that I see or hear about that simply doesn't fit into the standard western paradigm. Accupuncture, chi gong, Reiki, homeopathy, to list some health care practices, have the strong appearance of efficacy. The medical explanations and the traditional explanations of how they do their thing leave me wondering. We need explanations. Personally, I'd rather leave things up in the air as to the hows and whys.

So, regarding Jerry's post: peptides? spirit? I think I need a beer now.
Tony

[kevin m.]

Interesting topic Jerry-I've read various 'snippets' on this subject previously.
Though I'm not 'religious' (certainly NOT in any 'organised religion' way)I've always had an interest in what have been termed 'Fortean' subjects.A couple of personal 'anecdotes'-which can probably be very easily 'rationally' explained;
When I was very young,we lived in the downstairs area an old house,an elderly couple lived upstairs to us (more about them in a moment).
One day my Aunt was passing by,and decided, on a whim, to pay us a call.She opened the front door, and looking down the hallway, saw an old women from behind,dressed in "old fashioned clothing", walking towards what was our 'living room'.
Thinking that we had 'company' (who she didn't recognise),my Aunt left without talking to anyone.
When my aunt called to our house the next week,she mentioned that she had 'poked her head through the door',but had left as we'd had 'Company'. Yes you've guessed-We'd had no elderly visitors,nor did we know anyone who fitted the description of the 'old lady' in the Hallway!
The woman who lived upstairs to us was a regular attender at a local 'Spiritualist' church,and was always chided about this by her husband,who poo-poohed the whole idea of contact with the dead.
Anyway,she eventually persuaded her husband to go along to the church,and to his amazement,they received a 'message' from their son,who had been a merchant seaman in W.W.2,and was killed when his ship was torpedoed on a North Atlantic 'run'.
The gist of the 'message' was that 'he didn't suffer-as he'd been asleep when it happened' (mind you-I would have thought that you'd have woken up BLOODY quick if a torp. had just hit your ship! ) Needless to say,the lady's husband never poo-poohed her church visits again.
My mum says that a woman (a gypsy?)called at the door one day and said "This house is full of spirits"
Tony, where did your get 'The Fairy faith in the Celtic Countries'? I've wanted to read this for years (some of my recent 'clips and snips' efforts have 'folklore themes' which relate to this interest of mine).That book is mentioned on numerous occassions in a 'classic' of U.F.O. literature-Jacques Vallee's 'Passport to Magonia'.Vallee is a well respected French computer scientist,who worked for N.A.S.A..
In the book he relates how the old 'Fairy' folklore and modern 'Ufo/'Alien' folklore have striking parallels.
I'm also currently re-reading Patrick Harpur's 'Daimonic Reality' which looks at the whole spectrum of 'Fortean phenomena' throughout the ages, such as ghosts,Fairies,U.F.O.'s,visions of 'The Virgin Mary' etc,etc and tries to treat them as a 'cognitive whole'. The book even includes a photo of a 'Fairy shoe',under 3 inches long, possibly made of Mouse-skin,which was found in Ireland in the 19th century( ).I can very highly recommend both books as 'must haves' if you're into serious discussions of 'Forteana' rather than the 'Your Cat's star sign' and 'Spells for Teenage witches' rubbish which clutter the 'Mind,Body,Spirit' shelves of most bookshops these days.

[RonKiley]

The only thing I can contribute is that my brother in law is in the hospital right now undergoing his sixth kidney transplant. In the many years since his first transplant he has never mentioned having any experience such as this. Others may indeed have such experiences but probably so do many people who have not had transplants. Count me as a skeptic.
Ron

[Lorenzo]

Dead Memories

Communicating with the dead has found a growing television audience in recent years, with nationally syndicated shows like Crossing Over With John Edward and Beyond With James Van Praagh.

The show's hosts claim to be able to connect with the deceased relatives or friends of audience members, and often reveal family stories and details with startling accuracy. In many cases, the audience members believe they have just received a message from their loved one beyond the grave.

But, according to Briton Ian Rowland, you may not need psychic powers to convince people they are communicating with the dead — just some well-chosen questions and a sensitivity to the audience's reaction.

Rowland says he can produce a similar effect to the TV mediums' shows by using a technique known as "cold reading." He shows how the technique works in a demonstration he has performed around the world.

To test Rowland's claims, Primetime hired him to give his demonstration to an audience of 20 volunteers who had indicated they were open to the possibility of communication with the dead. The volunteers were told it was an experiment to test Rowland's psychic abilities.

Rowland was given no personal information about the audience and had no contact with them beforehand. Nevertheless, he was confident he would be able to convince some of them he was in touch with the dead. "We should be able to come up with information that people connect with which seems to describe people who have died and moved on to the afterlife," he told Primetime's producers.


Common Names, Common Ailments

Rowland started out by saying he was feeling the spirit of an older man with a heart or chest condition. He said the man had a message for somebody: "I'm being shown Michael or M," he told the audience. Sure enough, an audience member called Michael said he had a connection with an older man with a heart or chest condition: his father.

"This is what we call the Russian doll statement," Rowland explained to Primetime afterward. "I start with something as vague as possible, and I'm looking for who will bite. It's a lot like fishing ... If it's not you, your immediate family, your extended family, then it's someone you work with, a friend, used to know, someone you're going to know."

"I know the kind of medical symptoms that are most likely to get people to agree," he went on. "I have lists in my head of the 18 commonest male names, 18 commonest female names that have been registered in the United States for the last 45 years."


Casting a Wide Net

When Rowland brought up the name Karen later in the session, it resonated with an audience member whose cousin had had a granddaughter named Karen. He also predicted accurately that the audience member knew someone who was in the process of moving.

Both connections were pretty general, but then, seemingly out of nowhere, Rowland asked the audience member if she had a calendar or a wall chart at home that was out of date. Astonished, the woman confessed that her relative had given her a fabric calendar that she still had.

But Rowland later explained that it is not uncommon for families to have an out-of-date calendar in the house. "There are certain things — and I have a list of about 18 of them in my head — that tend to come up in most people's families," he said, such as a box of old photos or a broken appliance that has still not been thrown out.

Another technique Rowland uses is to throw out many questions and possibilities, in the hope that one will make a hit. "It's not necessarily about getting right, right, right, hit, hit, hit.... You capitalize off the things that are working. And the others, you let them wither gently to one side," he said.


Audience Members Say It's Real for Them

At the end of the session, Rowland told the audience he does not believe he has any psychic ability, and that he was doing a cold reading to convince them they were in touch with their relatives. "What I was doing tonight, if ... a link was achieved, I think that's real for you. And I'm not going to say otherwise," he said, adding, "I'm not sure it was real for me."

Some of the audience members said Rowland's display did not diminish their faith in the readings he had just given them, or in psychic communication in general. "To me it doesn't matter, because I believe we get the signs we need in the way we need them," said one man. "And if you're cold reading or really talking to the other side, as long as I got a sign to me that made it feel real, my hope that it was real will make it real."

Rowland says his mission is to educate people about techniques like cold reading so they can make a more informed decision on whether to believe claims of psychic ability. "If they read about it, find out about it, it just might change their whole view of this psychic industry," he said.

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"as long as I got a sign to me that made it feel real, my hope that it was real will make it real."

"as long as I got a sign to me that made it feel real, my hope that it was real will make it real."

"as long as I got a sign to me that made it feel real, my hope that it was real will make it real."

"as long as I got a sign to me that made it feel real, my hope that it was real will make it real."

[Ridseard]

The only thing I can contribute is that my brother in law is in the hospital right now undergoing his sixth kidney transplant. In the many years since his first transplant he has never mentioned having any experience such as this. Others may indeed have such experiences but probably so do many people who have not had transplants. Count me as a skeptic.
Ron

My wife had her second kidney transplant last year, and she also has never mentioned any unusual mental phenomena. I suppose kidneys could be an exception, but I remain a skeptic.

[Nanohedron]

The only thing I can contribute is that my brother in law is in the hospital right now undergoing his sixth kidney transplant. In the many years since his first transplant he has never mentioned having any experience such as this. Others may indeed have such experiences but probably so do many people who have not had transplants. Count me as a skeptic.
Ron

My wife had her second kidney transplant last year, and she also has never mentioned any unusual mental phenomena. I suppose kidneys could be an exception, but I remain a skeptic.

As do I. Still, the idea intrigues me, and it would be interesting to know more on all sides of the issue.

[Nanohedron]

Tony, where did your get 'The Fairy faith in the Celtic Countries'?

Amazon.com has some copies available, as well as other bookselling sites.

If you're averse to killing trees, I found an e-text for "Fairy-faith in Celtic Countries" at:

http://paganism.com/ag/articles/fairy-faith.html

[Doc Jones]

So, if memory can be stored in organs other than the brain. Then it could be that it is somehow encoded in the DNA. If this is true it could theoretically be transferred genetically to our offspring.

Perhaps under special circumstances (such as hypnosis) these genetic memories could be accessed.

So maybe when, under hypnosis, someone tells all about the time they sat on the banks of the Nile and watched the pyramids being built the explanation isn't that they had a previouls life as an egyptian but rather that they have inherited genetic code from an egyptian ancestor.

Hmm, kind of blows the whole re-incarnation theory right out of the water.


Doc

[kevin m.]

Tony, where did your get 'The Fairy faith in the Celtic Countries'?

Amazon.com has some copies available, as well as other bookselling sites.

If you're averse to killing trees, I found an e-text for "Fairy-faith in Celtic Countries" at:

http://paganism.com/ag/articles/fairy-faith.html

Thank you very much for the e-text link Nano.,if you don't hear from me for a while,don't worry-I haven't been 'taken' -I'm just reading!
Something in return; www.dreampower.com have the text of 'The Secret Commonwealth' by the Rev. Robert Kirk. As you no doubt already know,Kirk wrote this treatise on the Fairy Race(s) in 1691,and is alleged to have been abducted by them!

[Caj]

I don't think so. Even if there is a "cellular memory," the new memories they describe in this teaser are just far too complex to be stored in, say, someone's kidneys. Images of the donor?

We see this same phenomenon regarding psychic powers: someone proposes some kind of scientific theory --- say, that the brain might exert weak electromagnetic forces on things outside the body --- and then this is coupled with anecdotes such as a man telekinetically bending a telephone poll, or a woman having a premonition of a murder on the other side of the country. Same thing: a tenuous theory proposing a very very weak phenomenon, amazing anecdotal tales that could not possibly fit that theory.

Caj

[kevin m.]

I just had a wierd thought (so what's new- blame it on the vintage Generation lead fipples )- If memories are encoded in our DNA, then just WHAT is being swept up with all the hairclippings on the barbers floor?
I reckon I could write a surreal 'stand-up' routine on that premise-"Hey Barber,Give me a 'Mullet' and just make sure you trim away all those memories of how crap the 1980's were!"
DID you know that Since Elton John had his hair transplant,he now has the memories of an out of work Latvian Plumber?

[Caj]

Kevin, doesn't that mean a barber could just save time by shaving all customers completely bald? After all, you wouldn't remember whether or not you just asked for a little off the top

I guess the "Discovery Health" channel is like the Discovery channel, which years ago was a science/educational channel, but was driven by ratings towards shows about X-filesy topics like ufos and haunted houses.

Caj

[allezlesbleus]

Count me in as a big skeptic. I've known about the cold reading technique after hearing an interview with a guy who made a bunch of money as a carnival "psychic" but then felt guilty about duping his customers. I've also freaked out a couple of friends doing it to them. There's also the interesting story of the well known nun who received visions from God and it turned out she had a form of epilepsy (psychological vs. physiological seizures). One of the interesting questions (besides whether she actually spoke with God) was whether she should be treated. They postulated that Joan of Arc's visions were also epileptic in nature. I just read an article about how the oracles of Delphi were actually getting high on naturally occuring ethylene (the Pythia's chamber lay at the intersection of two fault lines). There's also a region of the brain that gets activated when people have an out of body experience (yogis, praying monks, and also people very near death).

It might be better to say that there is much that science hasn't yet explained.

PC