Concertina advice, please...

[brewerpaul]

A store down the block has a concertina sitting in the window, and it beckons to me each time I pass by.
It's an Anglo, 20 button model made in Russia, and the cost is $189.
Is the Anglo or the English system better for Celtic music? Are 20 buttons enough? Any and all advice welcomed. Thanks

[Bretton]

Most people would say the Anglo is best for trad. Irish music. Playing the English system is kind of like using a piano accordion for trad. Irish music...it can be done, but you have to be very good to make it sound "correct".

A 20 button anglo would be fine depending on what keys it's tuned to. A 20 button C/G Anglo would have trouble playing tunes with 2 sharps. If it's a 20 button D/G you'd probably be good to go. A 20 button D/A would have trouble with tunes with only 1 sharp.

The C/G is the tuning most trad. Irish players use but the two best players where I live play a three row D/G and a four! row D/A.

-Brett

[herbivore12]

Paul,

There was a thread in December, started by Claudine, about this very subject. Do a search for "Best low price concertina", and I think that'll get you there. Most of your questions will probably be answered in that discussion.

In short, the experienced folks didn't seem very high on the cheapie concertinas made in Russia, recommended 30 buttons (20 was deemed "limiting"); there's lots of other info in the thread, though.

Best,

Aaron

[bob baksi]

Knowing squat about 'tinas other than I wanted one to diversify from whistle playing, I consulted with master concertina maker and professional IrTrad musician Frank Edgeley in December. For Irish trad, he recommended & I bought an Anglo [aka Irish] 30 C/G 'tina, which Frank custom manufactured in about 6 weeks. As it turns out, there are several "common" button layouts, particularly with respect to the 3rd row of 10. Frank recommended, and I agreed, to a 'modified Wheatstone" layout. I posted an earlier thread on my concertina. Since then, I know at least one other well-known C&Fer has placed an order with him. You can contact Frank & ask for guidance if you want by looking up his website, or read reviews and get other concertina info at www.concertina.net
Based on my limited experience and knowledge to date, the 30 is just right, as I often use the 3rd row of 10 "helper" buttons which a 20 doesn't provide. I'm speculating a 40 would simply be more "space" than my fingers could reasonably make use of efficiently. I wouldn't change my decision to have bought a 30.

[Arthur]

Without wishing to be too discouraging, I doubt that a cheap Russian concertina would be of much use for playing Irish music to any decent standard, as it is unlikely to have the speed of response needed.

What it would do is to provide a cheap way of finding out whether Anglo concertina is an instrument you enjoy and have an aptitude for before you commit the rather substantial amount of money needed for a good instrument. Not everyone finds it easy to get their head round the push/pull concept of the Anglo. It seems perfectly natural to me, but when I tried English concertina, I was deeply confused by having the same note on both push and pull!

If you look at it in this light as an experiment, then go for it - give it a try. I love Anglos as much as I love whistles, and I hope you have a great time.

Arthur

[Caj]

Is the Anglo or the English system better for Celtic music? Are 20 buttons enough?

Really, it's all good. Better to ask which kind of instrument is more compatible with your brain. Some people find Anglos intuitive, some Englishes.

That being said, the C/G Anglo is more traditional for Irish music, which is important because if you want lessons (and you should take some lessons) you'll find workshops in Anglo concertina at Irish festivals. The English is more general-purpose, musically.

The big issue, however, is price. If you don't know how much a decent box typically costs, sit down in a stable chair and visit concertina.net. After that, go to the House of Musical Traditions. They're your best bet if you want to buy an inexpensive concertina. Wendy from HMT posts here, and can tell you lots more.

Caj

[Caj]

A 20 button anglo would be fine depending on what keys it's tuned to. A 20 button C/G Anglo would have trouble playing tunes with 2 sharps. If it's a 20 button D/G you'd probably be good to go. A 20 button D/A would have trouble with tunes with only 1 sharp.

A C/G is probably your best bet, given that you will one day upgrade to a 30-buttoner. Or something in between---there are 24, 26 button concertinas that give you the C# and G#. If you learn on a G/D or a D/A, you'd have to relearn when jumping to a standard 30-button C/G box. In the mean time, boxes with less than 30 buttons are a pretty good deal, since they are often undervalued for not being totally chromatic; and you can play a lot of tunes on a 20-button C/G, enough to keep you busy while you save your money for an upgrade.

Also, C/G gives you more educational opportunities. All tutor books/tapes/etc are oriented to C/G. One tape, by John M. Williams, is all 20-button tunes.

Caj

[bob baksi]

Yes, new high quality Irish (aka Anglo) Concertinas are expensive, as are high end used 'tinas. I was very surprised and almost backed away from my purchase because of it. Then, I looked at what guitarists & violinists pay for their high end instruments (new & used), and the Concertina pricing looked lots better in perspective.
For C&Fers in the US of A, because your dollar is currently worth about 1.45 Canadian dollars, buying a high end Canadian made concertina (or whistle, or whatever, for that matter) might be economically attractive for consideration.
Frank Edgeley is the only Canadian 'tina craftsman I know of, located in Windsor (across the narrow river from Detroit), but there may be others. Frank's website may indicate current Canadian dollar pricing as I recall. You can check Frank's international reputation as a master craftsman of Irish Concertinas by starting at www.concertina.net

[Wombat]

Paul,
In all likelihood you're looking at a C/G; they're the most common. I started on a 20 button Lachenal C/G but wanted to move up to a 30+ button anglo within about two months of starting. If you play a number of instruments, as I think you do, you will pick up anglo quite quickly.

On a 20 button C/G you won't have C# at all. That isn't just limiting, for Irish music it's near useless except for tunes in G and related minor keys, given that more Irish tunes are in D than any other key. Even on tunes that lack C# when played on other instruments, a concertina player will often insert it in a triplet where a whistler or piper might employ a roll or a cut.

It's a good idea to play a two row instrument if you are wondering whether the tone is for you or whether you can handle the harmonica style button layout. But the former issue only takes a few minutes and the latter a few weeks. On a really bad instrument, you would get no idea of how good an anglo can sound. There's a tendency for cheapies to employ accordeon reeds and they don't really sound like anglos at all.

I'd suggest that you borrow a two row C/G for a couple of months and, if you take to it, get a good three row instrument. There's bound to be someone out there who has an old 20 button model sitting around unused. Otherwise you'll be wasting your money, even if you do decide that anglo is for you.

[claudine]

Paul,
There was a thread in December, started by Claudine, about this very subject. Do a search for "Best low price concertina", and I think that'll get you there. Most of your questions will probably be answered in that discussion.

My conclusion was: it's cheaper to play flute

[Lorenzo]

Anglo concertinas are more fun! I started
out on a vintage 3-row C/G but soon found
myself wanting something more friendly.
Upon closer inspection I learned that the
3rd row is very similar to D and all I had to do
was switch the reeds around, and retune a couple,
and voila...I had a 3-row concertina:

row 1 - G
row 2 - C
row 3 - D

One of the # is reversed on push/pull but
once you get use to it it's even smoother.
Nowadays, I play several 2-row concertinas,
all tuned different. By far, I play the G/D the most.

row 1 - G
Row 2 - D

Tuning the C row up to D is easy too.
Switch a few reeds around and retune a couple.
With cheaper concertinas, you'll have to
unwax/rewax the reeds in place.

[Wombat]

Paul,
There was a thread in December, started by Claudine, about this very subject. Do a search for "Best low price concertina", and I think that'll get you there. Most of your questions will probably be answered in that discussion.

My conclusion was: it's cheaper to play flute

Not after you've finished paying for lessons.

[Wombat]

Anglo concertinas are more fun! I started
out on a vintage 3-row C/G but soon found
myself wanting something more friendly.
Upon closer inspection I learned that the
3rd row is very similar to D and all I had to do
was switch the reeds around, and retune a couple,
and voila...I had a 3-row concertina:

row 1 - G
row 2 - C
row 3 - D

One of the # is reversed on push/pull but
once you get use to it it's even smoother.
Nowadays, I play several 2-row concertinas,
all tuned different. By far, I play the G/D the most.

row 1 - G
Row 2 - D

Tuning the C row up to D is easy too.
Switch a few reeds around and retune a couple.
With cheaper concertinas, you'll have to
unwax/rewax the reeds in place.

This would get around some of the problems I mentioned but it's a lot of trouble for a beginner to go through. Would you bother tweaking a cheap Russian model with accordeon reeds?

[Caj]

Paul,
On a 20 button C/G you won't have C# at all. That isn't just limiting, for Irish music it's near useless except for tunes in G and related minor keys, given that more Irish tunes are in D than any other key.

I did a statistical analysis of Henrik Norbeck's tune archive, and found that in terms of key signatures, not keys, about 50% of the archive was G or flatter, 50% D or sharper, in a nice bell curve on the circle of fifths:



There is a concertina player/seller/repairman/teacher named Paul Groff who advocates 20-button boxes for the student starting out because you really can play a lot of tunes on them, and they are far cheaper (and, as I said, undervalued).
This is doubly true for someone who can already play the whistle: it's not like you'll be sitting in a session unable to play because of something C#-heavy.

[Lorenzo]

This would get around some of the problems I mentioned but it's a lot of trouble for a beginner to go through. Would you bother tweaking a cheap Russian model with accordeon reeds?

No, I wouldn't bother with a cheap Russian
concertina, or even a Hohner. Of the cheap ones,
I prefer the mellow tone of the Bastari, but
Regoletta and others are okay too, usually can
be had for $100-175 USD used, like on eBay.
Granted they don't sound like a Wheatstone
or anything!

BTW, rewaxing is easy with a pointed solder gun.
Retuning a reed is the bother. As a piano tuner,
I use to tune pump organs also. File a few strokes
at the base to lower pitch, many strokes at the tip
to raise pitch...careful, too thin is not good! You can
safely go a 1/2 step, but I've even gone a whole step.

Once you hear a tune played on a D/G concertina,
as opposed to a D tune played on a C/G 3-row concertina,
it becomes obvious how much preferable it is. Nice smooth runs...everywhere.