Rudall Carte & Co. Radcliff Model - buy it now?

[dubrosa22]

I've been offered a good deal on a Rudall Carte & Co. Radcliff Model #61x. (Berners Street, Oxford Street)
For $650AUD, roughly £300.

The condition is quite acceptable. No visible damage or cracks; all parts present, including case, rod and grease pot. Springs even look good. Possibly silverplate.

The seller is a friend's acquaintance (in another state 1000km away) who doesn't play and aside from half dozen photos can't supply me much information. Apparently it was appraised 10 years ago by a woodwind dealer at $800AUD; could be baloney. Getting a sounding length from them has been a battle. Hopefully it will be forthcoming.

I realise being from the last quarter of the 19th C. puts it in High Pitch territory. (Although a recently sold eBay Radcliff #580 claimed to be Concert Pitch??)

I'm quite keen I love the concept of the Radcliff. I do anticipate a BIG clean-up, repad and maybe much more. But I like the work I can do myself, honestly, which hopefully will be all of it.

So, should I buy it knowing that I can't play with other folks? I really don't play flute aside from solo anyway and have two simple systems if I were too.

Is it a great buy or a bad one??? Help please, I have to decide very soon!

Vaughan
P.S. Photos coming soon...

[dubrosa22]

N.B. Crown placed in barrel/slide socket in above photo

[radcliff]

I like it, i guess even High pitch it could worth such amount.

[jemtheflute]

I have #595 made in 1916, and it is (originally) modern Concert Pitch. They were making both CP and HP into the 1930s, so it's a 50/50 toss-up what #610 may be short of having the SL or play-testing it. It probably dates to after WW1, but I can't check right now. Subjectively from its proportions in the photo I'd say there's at least a chance it is CP. It looks to be in very good general condition, but photos won't tell if it needs an overhaul. The price is a snip, especially considering it is the full original assemblage of flute, case, grease pot and swab-rod with screw-driver. The latter on its own is worth about £50 GBP. In full playing condition a HP model is IMO/E worth about £500 GBP and a good CP one at least £2K. Buy it!

[TWO TOOTS]

Hi Vaughan, Seems to me from the sound of things that it wont take too much convincing before you buy this one. I honestly know little or nothing about this type of flute. Jemtheflute and a few others on this forum will give you insightful advice on this type of flute.
You mention that you are told that you have to move quickly on this one. Normally I am wary of pressured sales, but it appears in this case it would be going through a mutual friend. Is it possible for you to arrange a trial period, so you can assess the instrument up close before full payment is made? You could offer a deposit or something of that nature. Your friend should be able to vouch for you. Hope this helps. Owen.

Looks like Jem is already there to assist.

[jemtheflute]

Oh and it won't be silver plate. That's a solid sterling silver mechanism.

[AHFR]

Are you sure about the serial number? It looks like 510 to me. And that ties in because that flute was exported to Melbourne when new in August 1911. I think 610 however was Ebonite for the UK market.

I have noticed that Carte continued to export High Pitch flutes to Australia through to the 1930s, so I assume the Aussies took longer to convert.

From the photos this Radcliff looks original, i.e. has not been transplanted to a newer Low Pitch body.

How much work will be required is impossible to say without seeing the flute. The keywork has to be tight and the pads need to be working well for the flute to play easily.

£300-500 is about right. But there are a few High Pitch Radcliffs around, whereas finding a good Low Pitch one is much more difficult.

Hope that helps!
A

[dubrosa22]

Thanks for the input guys.

I realise it seemed like a no-brainer from the outset but the HP risk made me second guess myself and seek some assurance.

Time is of the essence as the present owner is offering it to me as a favour to our mutual friend. He is selling off lots of things (no other flutes sadly) via other usual channels and garage sales over the next week before moving house.

A - It looks like #610 to me and the seller, but we could easily be wrong. And it's certainly not ebonite. Where do you get the information of location/materials? Is there a log somewhere? Looking at that 6 now does look like a 5 possibly... Hmm.

I didn't realise this flute would date as recently as WWI from the low serial number but I know that each Rudall Carte line had its own serial run.

Thanks Jem also for the 50/50 odds on the CP.

I am absolutely going for it!

I'll report back when it's in my hands!

V

[jemtheflute]

You have more info than I have access to, AHFR. (Yes, the RC &Co.records for this period are extant - Robert Bigio has them.) I thought it looked like a 6 viewing the photo on my phone, but your records info suggests otherwise. I agree it's not re-bodied/pitched. Whatever it is, it's all original. The records usually say what pitch a flute was built for, but not always.

[dubrosa22]

Yes, I'm convinced it's 510 now. Adds up.
I'm amazed at the resources here!

[AHFR]

I'm pretty certain this is High Pitch. However that does not affect its quality - when new it was a Rolls Royce. And it still has lots of pleasure to give!

A

[jemtheflute]

BTW, the Radcliff serials didn't reach #800 before the last few were put into the main run of "modern" flutes, and as they only got started in the 1870s......

[dubrosa22]

I'm still trying to determine the pitch before pulling the trigger in a few hours.
Here is #543 which is in HP (but with a B foot):
http://www.antiqueflutes.com/product.php?id=759


I'm trying to compare dimensions but it's tricky.

V

[jemtheflute]

It is indeed tricky. TBH the only tolerably reliable distance method is the sounding length. However, in this case the overall length, either including correctly inserted crown or from outsides of end rings might suffice, or the length of the body joint excluding the tenons. I don't have those measurements for a CP example to hand, but can obtain them for comparison if you can elicit them from the vendor. Not that I can see why measuring the sounding length should be problematic if well explained.

[jemtheflute]

I don't have any separate photos of it online and I'm not at home to take one, but you can see my CP #595 quite well in this photo (follow link) to try to eyeball proportions, for what that exercise is worth. I'm certainly unsure/undecided. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... e43342a4a6