is busking begging?

[emmline]

so......



Boehm Bach babes can't be beat?

(...but better be busking in blue.)

[jim stone]

With a white blouse!

I was busking in Innsbruck too. Oh my did I look silly in
a white blouse and a blue skirt! I expect I would have
done better if I had shaved my beard. (That was before
things got so loosey-goosey genderwise. )

[jim stone]

OK, let me prove it.
Some definitions:
2. Beggars are not performing a service, nor are they trying to, nor are they perceived as performing a service. (I set aside cases where the beggar offers to do you some service for a reward.)
3. Therefore the money given beggars isn’t a tip. Nobody tips beggars.

I'm somewhat surprised at your blind spot Jim, given your standing up for the rights of workers in 'Pakistan' and the like, turning out budget flutes and other musical instruments.

Go back to my standard image of the archetypal mother & child begging on the sidewalk. The child may or may not be hers, but she is asking for money and trading skilfully in elicting human sympathy for her perceived condition and needs of the child etc. I would argue that that is every bit as much a skill as you tooting a few old tunes out. People listen to you and maybe say 'Oh that's nice' and give you some change - They look at the mother & child and they also give spare cash - in return they feel good and get a little lift in return for having helped a fellow human being. Taking both at face value, they are both the same - you are both trading on some little skill and hope to get people to part with a few coins in order that they may feel good.

I've seen a zillion beggars, as I lived in India for several years. I agree that some of them are skillful.
I disagree that the beggar is providing a sort of service. In India they try to drive you crazy
until you give them money. They follow you for blocks, tugging at your sleeve and whining....
A good number of beggars in India have money and homes, in fact. Each morning they get into
their rags and take the trolley into town to beg.

But let's allow for argument's sake that beggars are doing a service because people feel good after they've
given to a beggar.

I wrote earlier that 'a tip is a small amount of money given as a gift for a service.'
And I cited a number of dictionary definitions of 'tip' that confirm this.

Now, even if the beggar provides a service, the money given to the beggar isn't given
as a gift for a service. One isn't expressing thanks for a service in giving
to the beggar--even if the beggar really is doing you a service..
Rather one is giving out of pity for the beggar.

So here's a revised argument:

1. People give to beggars out of pity. Even if the beggar is providing an opportunity
to feel good, and even if that's a service, the money isn't given as a gift for that service. This is the economic strategy of begging--the beggar is trying to make money by inspiring pity, not by providing a service, even if he does provide a service.

2. People give to street performers as a gift for a service, as an expression of thanks for the
music or entertainment. That's the economic strategy of busking--the busker is trying to make
money by providing a service in the hope that people will express their thanks by giving money.

3. A tip is a small amount of money given as a gift for a service (Standard Definition).

Therefore,

4. As buskers, not beggars, are tipped, buskers aren't beggars.

[Denny]

so......



Boehm Bach babes can't be beat?

(...but better be busking in blue.)

but if buskin' be beggin' .....


I just hate it when they beg

[I.D.10-t]

So what is it when you are playing and have a sigh that says "Need money for music lessons"?

[jim stone]

Begging.

[SteveShaw]

I keep having this nagging thought that if busking is begging then so is going to work. Especially if you're self-employed...

[jim stone]

Nah, that's prostitution.

[Denny]

but ya get ta be yer own pimp!

[Cubitt]

I consider it begging if you solicit money that the person being solicited is not obligated to pay.

That would include 'pay what you can' events, which isn't right. There's a significant difference between begging and an honour system of ticket pricing.

So the musician in the piano bar, with a tip jar on his piano, is a beggar.

No. Tips are tips, not pay for services rendered. A musician at a piano bar is employed by the bar. Tips are extra.

[Cubitt]

Therefore,

4. As buskers, not beggars, are tipped, buskers aren't beggars.

Once again, I must stipulate that a tip is only a tip if it is not solicited. If you have a hat out, it's a tip. If you ask for money, you are a beggar.

[Cubitt]

I consider it begging if you solicit money that the person being solicited is not obligated to pay.

That would include 'pay what you can' events, which isn't right. There's a significant difference between begging and an honour system of ticket pricing.

You're right, of course, but I didn't think this distinction needed to be made. The example you give, like public radio or TV, involves the audience seeking out and making active use of the performers' show. They sought out the performance and are expected to pay something, even if on the honor system. A busker is in your face, unsought. A very important distinction for our discussion, I think.

[jim stone]

So if the pianist is not employed by the bar, but plays in the bar just for tips, THEN he is a beggar.

[jim stone]

Therefore,

4. As buskers, not beggars, are tipped, buskers aren't beggars.

Once again, I must stipulate that a tip is only a tip if it is not solicited. If you have a hat out, it's a tip. If you ask for money, you are a beggar.

So buskers aren't beggars, unless they ask for money.

[Cubitt]

Therefore,

4. As buskers, not beggars, are tipped, buskers aren't beggars.

Once again, I must stipulate that a tip is only a tip if it is not solicited. If you have a hat out, it's a tip. If you ask for money, you are a beggar.

So buskers aren't beggars, unless they ask for money.

That's my opinion, anyway.