Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

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Mr.Gumby
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

I don't think it's ridiculous to point out that hear it/play it is better than see it/play it.
Obviously you don't, you wouldn't be making the point otherwise, wouldn't you?

We may be talking slightly at cross purposes here, I am referring to playing (Irish) music in general and you centre on playing in sessions (I said things about that earlier in the discussion so take that on board).

But having said that, can you explain to me then why, for a competent musician familiar with traditional music for the purpose of acquiring repertoire, there would be such an advantage of one over the other?

I assume a musician with good ears, able to listen to whoever he is playing with and adjust accordingly for best result. Lifting a tune by ear is quick and easy, that's a given too.

I admit to playing Devil's advocate to an extent but I am seriously curious why this has become such a dogma.
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by benhall.1 »

Yep. I totally get the idea of "turning" a tune to fit whoever's there. But if you haven't played it with people, you probably won't be able to do that. And some tunes just don't "turn" (I'm thinking "Whistling Postman" which seems to have one version per musician, and all incompatible) ... but that's a whole different story.

But, and I'm sticking to it, if what you want is to play with other people - like, say, in a session - then you need to have played (that particular tune) with other people. If you 'learnt' it from dots at some dim and distant point in the past - fine, I don't care. But then I'd raise the argument "When do you think you actually learnt that tune? When you learnt it from the dots? Or when you could play with other musicians?".

As I say, all of this means nothing if you fully intend to be a superstar and happen to have the sheer brilliance to do so. At which point, playing in sessions would probably just hold you back.

[Cross-posting with Mr G - I'll get back to you later. :) ]
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

But if you haven't played it with people, you probably won't be able to do that.
Now that I really seriously fail to understand. And don't tell me 'but people are likely to play it differently from the printed source' because the next set of people from the ones you learned it by are likely to do it differently as well.

On another pedantic note, I think 'turning a tune' in this context is probably not the right turn of phrase.

There's one of the classic stories of a crossroads dance that got disrupted by the parish priest. I'll shorten the story a bit but eventually the priest caught up with the blind musician who played for the dance and asked him if he knew the 'Our Father'. 'I am not sure I do father but if you can sing me the first part, I am sure I can turn it for you'. Was the reply.

Another one involves Padraig O Keeffe again. Another fiddleplayer was playing the first part of a particular tune over and over. At some point Padraig suggested he'd take the fiddle and the tune out to the yard where he'd have more room to turn it.
Last edited by Mr.Gumby on Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by benhall.1 »

Mr.Gumby wrote:
But if you haven't played it with people, you probably won't be able to do that.
Now that I really seriously fail to understand. And don't tell me 'but people are likely to play it differently from the printed source' because the next set of people from the ones you learned it by are likely to do it differently as well.
Absolutely fine, but in my actual, practical experience (I know you have lots as well - that's not what I mean) when someone has learnt a tune from the dots, and before they've played it with people, keeping an open ear and mind and adjusting as they do so, they can't play it with other people. Full stop. Don't care who they are. Don't care how good they think they are. You know the tune when you know it. And, for session purposes, that means having played it in sessions. For my part, when I have the tune, I can play any old way you want to play it. (As long as it isn't a version learnt off an Eileen Ivers recording. :wink: )
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

That's nonsense. Sorry, that's the best I can do.
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by Cathy Wilde »

If someone like O'Farrell or Canon Goodman didn't think the tunes they had might be of value to someone "out of earshot," they wouldn't have written them down. James Morrison wrote tunes out for his students, note for note, and those who want to study his settings are lucky for it. Teachers in the classes I've been to, great Irish players all, often write tunes out in at least ABC format. What do people think? That Irish musicians can't freaking read?

I don't know where this "if you don't learn it by ear it's no good" crap comes from, but I'm fed up with it. It's bull. The point is, if you hear a tune you like, you learn it by whatever means necessary. And when I say "learn it," I mean "know it." In a session it's not like you're going to play some mad personal setting anyway unless you don't want anyone else to play it with you (which isn't the point of a session anyway). Learn the bones of the tune, and know it well enough to vary it. Be able to play it simply, be able to dress it up if you want to.

Why does everyone have to make it so damned hard? :tantrum:
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by benhall.1 »

Oh well. I've said it as well as I can. Other people think it's "crap", "bull", "nonsense" and "ridiculous" but I, for one, am fed up with non-musicians wrecking perfectly decent sessions by turning up with their dot-learnt non-tunes and not having the ears to tell what's wrong. There are sessions - attended by several of my friends, good guys - that I just can't bring myself to go to, for this sort of reason (also attended by the dots brigade, see). I reckon, if you heard them, you guys would start to see my point.

That's my take, and I'll leave it there.
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by straycat82 »

benhall.1 wrote:non-musicians wrecking perfectly decent sessions by turning up with their dot-learnt non-tunes and not having the ears to tell what's wrong
Emphasis added. That there is the very problem, not the fact that they learned it from paper.
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by Redwolf »

Cathy Wilde wrote:If someone like O'Farrell or Canon Goodman didn't think the tunes they had might be of value to someone "out of earshot," they wouldn't have written them down. James Morrison wrote tunes out for his students, note for note, and those who want to study his settings are lucky for it. Teachers in the classes I've been to, great Irish players all, often write tunes out in at least ABC format. What do people think? That Irish musicians can't freaking read?

I don't know where this "if you don't learn it by ear it's no good" crap comes from, but I'm fed up with it. It's bull. The point is, if you hear a tune you like, you learn it by whatever means necessary. And when I say "learn it," I mean "know it." In a session it's not like you're going to play some mad personal setting anyway unless you don't want anyone else to play it with you (which isn't the point of a session anyway). Learn the bones of the tune, and know it well enough to vary it. Be able to play it simply, be able to dress it up if you want to.

Why does everyone have to make it so damned hard? :tantrum:
Amen!
straycat82 wrote:Emphasis added. That there is the very problem, not the fact that they learned it from paper.
And amen again!

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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by benhall.1 »

Tell me chasps, did anybody read where I said "If you 'learnt' it from dots at some dim and distant point in the past - fine, I don't care."? [Last go this, honest, 'cos to me this stuff seems obvious, but I'm clearly not expressing myself, so I'll only wind myself and everybody else up for no good reason if I persevere.] All I'm saying is - don't think you know the tune the moment you have 'learnt' it from the dots. If that's what you want to do, OK, although I have to say, I think it will only slow up the process of learning the tune, but, if that's the way you've learnt it, then it's just the beginning. There's loads more listening and playing involved before you have it.

And, to me, Cathy, what I'm suggesting is simple: hear the tune/play it. What could be simpler? Why let a piece of code get in the way? I can't see the point of complicating it ...

@ Mr Gumby: just as an aside, if you're talking about resurrecting tunes, as opposed to living tunes that people play, then why not get 'em from books? It's the only place they'll be, right? But, if they're live tunes, why bother? Simpler just to get your mates to show you, surely?
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by Redwolf »

Mr.Gumby wrote:

On another pedantic note, I think 'turning a tune' in this context is probably not the right turn of phrase.
You may be right. I was using it in the sense that sean-nós singers use it...taking the "bones" of the tune and and putting the style on it.

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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

I don't know where this "if you don't learn it by ear it's no good" crap comes from, but I'm fed up with it. It's bull.
I think I do. It most likely goes back to the point that you can't learn Irish music from a book. Which is a general statement which holds true for all sorts of music. You need to hear it to grasp the idiom and you need to be around musicians to retain it.

I think you can apply it to an extent to tune learning: when you learn a tune by ear I believe you are more flexible with it, if you approach it the right way. Now that last bit is a bit of a caveat because you can learn a tune by ear and still be rigidly stuck with a version that becomes set in stone. Ideally you learn tunes from an understanding of the material, anyone who has seen an experienced traditional musician pick up a tune will know what I mean. You come to it with an understanding of how a tune works, where the nuts and bolts of the structure are, which notes are the foundation and which are passing notes and fill ins. First you pick out the main ones, the you put your phase structure in place and more often than not, third time round you have it. Although only to find you have lost it again when you get home. Next time it will come back though.

Once you have reached that stage, you can just as easy lift a tune from a book and bring it to life. The trick is not to learn any tune exactly by heart.

Now, to get back to where this post set out: the book-learning thing has become gospel on the internet and is repeated over and over again.

[edit/add]

Cross posting galore.
@ Mr Gumby: just as an aside, if you're talking about resurrecting tunes, as opposed to living tunes that people play, then why not get 'em from books? It's the only place they'll be, right? But, if they're live tunes, why bother? Simpler just to get your mates to show you, surely?
As I said, I take them where I find them. How often does it happen you play through a book and stumble into some tune that's living in the back of your mind? What do you do? You lift it.

Another Padraig O Keeffe story. Seamus Ennis was out collecting in Sliabh Luachra in 1948. A meeting was set in the public house Scartaglen so Ennis could notate tunes O'Keeffe played for him on previous days. O'Keeffe turned up with a stack of manuscript paper with all the tunes Ennis had asked for written. Ennis asked why he had taken the trouble. 'Why waste valuable drinking time?' was POK's reply.

No need to waste anyone's time in other words (I am not the drinking sort but the story seemed to fit the occasion) for tune learning purposes.
Last edited by Mr.Gumby on Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by benhall.1 »

See, I keep getting the feeling that we're actually saying the same thing ... :-?
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

But why do you maintain then that nobody can play a tune learned from a book with others? if that's your position, we were saying very different things.
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Re: Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

Post by benhall.1 »

Well, since I haven't said that once, I'm not sure where you got it from. What I said, from the start, is that, if one tries to play that tune in with others before you've also given it a bit of a listen, it won't work. In addition, I happen to think that getting a regular, live tune, initially, from the dots, will slow down the process of actually knowing the tune. Where I totally agree (could hardly emphasise more) is that it's just as bad when you get someone wedded to a particular version to the exclusion of even being able to hear differences from place to place and even from night to night in the same place.
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