Musical Snobery

[glauber]

We have a saying, "the proof is in the pudding,"

I think this is a nonsensical corruption of "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".

Now i'm being a snob!

g

[Monster]

I think the idea of different levels of sessions is very good. Beginner types go to beginner type sessions. Intermediates go to intermediate type session. Advanced players go to advanced type sessions. I mean I think it's a good idea, but hard to implement.

[whistlegal]

Here's my two cents. The session that I used to attend had success with this: We initially started out with what was an open session, held publicly. All were welcome, regardless of skill level, and we'd even venture out to other genres toward the end of the session just for fun. The rule was: The regulars had to be welcoming and friendly regardless of the circumstances. Everybody has to learn, right? Some of us did suffer from a certain degree of frustration. We were eager to play, eager to learn more tunes, eager, eager, eager. It was our only time to meet and play tunes together and the session moved so slowly that we were lucky to cover 5 or 6 tunes and learning a new tune was a huge task. Plus, ten penny whistles, 9 fiddles, 4 guitars, 2 bodhrans? Not a joyful sound!! We then came up with the idea to form a closed session, not public knowledge, for the more experienced players. We'd alternate hosting it in our homes. Problem solved. I attended both sessions regularly and had a blast at both. Helping out the beginners was very rewarding in itself, a contribution, a way to give back. The closed sessions were our reward.

[The Weekenders]

Pretty smart, whistlegal. You don't get to be called a snobe!

Or, just have a band...then you can play in pubs....then somebody shows up with a whistle and wants to.... oh, never mind.

[feadog39]

interesting thread. as burnsbyrne suggested, it strikes me that the essence of musical snobbery involves the dynamics of condescension or disrespect. However, i think people sometimes mistake a dedication to the purity and integrity of the tradition of ITM for snobbery. No, this is not (necessarily) snobbery. The ITM tradition has every right to maintain a level of purity and standards accordingly. In fact, it must do this if it is to be a tradition. thus, it strikes me, that musical snobbery should not be equated with the legitimate dedication to the purity of the tradition as such.

Of course, the line between what is traditional versus non-traditional is a very complex hermeneutic the truth of which no one person has a corner on (except me ) But that somebody maintains such a line exists does not a snob therefore make. He or she would be a snob about it if one of the further claims is implied “oh and by the way, whatever is outside this line is sh*te” or “I know what’s inside this line and idiots like you don’t.” This site contributes to confusion on this point because, while the unifying interest is the whistle, there are as we all know a plurality of genres in which the whistle can be played, all of which have a legitimate claim to being voiced and respected on this site. This site is post-traditional (rather than post-structural) in that regard. But because of this plurality it is sometimes difficult to determine whether such-and-such person is being a purist or a musical snob.

However, there is no doubt that authentic musical snobs do exist. In fact, ITM sometimes seems to be a breeding ground for them. What’s the impetus behind this complex phenomenon? Well, on an individual level, probably just someone with low self esteem who is trying to assert their ego. But I think some musical snobbery involves some kind cultural superiority complex, which in its most virulent form (and I’ve seen this) is a dynamic in which “purity” is a cipher for a kind of racist-like ideology focused on cultural superiority of “all things irish.” The latter kind of snobbery is scary indeed, leading to the logic of "only the irish can really play irish music."

[Tak_the_whistler]

Wow wow wow....after a night, what a sight.

>Jessie
"purists who are pushed to act like snobs when non-purists...insist on playing with the purists without being invited or respectful of etiquette."
True, which is precisely the point what I've been secretly wishing somebody won't say out loud! Sometimes a non-purists (like me) do indeed commit such a disrespectful crime, digging their their own grave (and later on complaining about how 'purists' were kill-joys), but not absolutely at all times, because I think that the new-comers (like me) aren't hundred percent aware of whethere or not the session s/he's in is "purely open" or "slightly closed"...or any basic manners of a session at all, in the first place....but then again it can be argued that a beginner should read, and I came to the conclusion after doing so,

"Field Guide to the Irish Music Session" by Barry Foy.

An essential reading, by the way, even if one hasn't any local sessions s/he can attend regularly.

Let me quote from the book;

p 13
"Isnt [a session] same as a 'jam'? "
"There's no 'jamming' in ITM...very specific tunes...rhythms..ways...keys...instruments. You can't walk into a session unprepared and unschooled and expect to bluff your way thru it"

Reference (just in case): Foy. Barry, "Field Guide to the Irish Music Session", (Colorado: Roberts Rinehart Publishers,1999)


>feadog,

"Only the irish can really play irish music." I can hear from somewhere, saying 'Amen' to that. Sort of like 'Only the pure-breed Japanese Shintoist can play Sho, Koto and Shakuhachi' sort of thing. Someone said religious snobbery is the worst kind of all. ..wait, should've been "Spiritual snobbery is the worst of all". Chesterton?

[cowtime]

I wish I had the session problems ya'll talk about.

There are none to be found in this neck of the woods. And, frankly, after reading this thread, I can't say I'd ever have the nerve to even hintthat I play any instrument, whistle or any of the others.

I do understand, I think, what is meant by a session being closed. When my Dad and brother and I use to play together(old-time) we knew what the other was going to play and the music was "tighter". There is a satisfaction in knowing the other players, their capabilities,etc. When a neighborhood music makin' took place, it was - if you play something, bring it and be prepared to join in, or either dance . Both were fun in different ways. Both played the same tunes, but produced differences in the same tunes. Neither was "incorrect". However, to compare even further, if a purely bluegrass player jumped in, we could have a good time and make music, but it was not the same kind of music. I guess it just depends on what your goal is .

Our pipe band handles the new player thing this way- we find out what tunes they know, play with them and then they are thanked and excused. Then the band "reherses" tunes we are working on as a band for performances or play new tunes that are still being worked out as a band.
While it may be a bit tiresome to play the old regular tunes over and over with new folks, I also remember how thrilling it was to finally play as part of a group.

[feadog39]

good point, Tak_the_whistler. you highlight the dynamics of what might be called reverse musical snobbery, those outside the tradition who level condescension and disrespect against those who are purists.

disrespect leads to disrespect in either direction....

oh, and regarding anybody who thinks you have to be irish in order to really play irish music, we have exhibit A: Isaac Alderson, the jewish kid from chicago who won the senior all ireland on...hmm...pipes, flute, and whistle. one of nicests and most talented musicians i've ever met...

[spittin_in_the_wind]

I wish I had the session problems ya'll talk about.

There are none to be found in this neck of the woods. And, frankly, after reading this thread, I can't say I'd ever have the nerve to even hintthat I play any instrument, whistle or any of the others.

Maybe I'll come down to play with you guys. One of the nicest experiences I've had in a long time was playing some old time and traditional American tunes on my whistle with a bunch of other instruments. And I live about an hour from Boston, the session capital of America, from what I can gather. I have a funny feeling that if I ever get to a session around here, and that's a big if, it will probably be more welcoming than what I have been led to believe on this board. It is a natural tendency for those "born again" to any tradition to be overly gung ho and critical of anyone who doesn't meet their criterion of skill and knowledge (after all, everyone has to start someplace, don't they?) Like they say, the nouveau riche are some of the worst snobs of all, as are the nouveau traditional.

Robin

[JessieK]

Even though there are musical similarities, the traditions and etiquette/culture of Old Time vs. Irish trad are VERY different. Old Time music is usually "jammed" and Ir-trad isn't. Respect the genre you are playing/listening to/learning about.

[cowtime]

Even though there are musical similarities, the traditions and etiquette/culture of Old Time vs. Irish trad are VERY different. Old Time music is usually "jammed" and Ir-trad isn't. Respect the genre you are playing/listening to/learning about.

I guess that's what I find kinda wierd about it. Since there are so many tunes and songs that were handed down to us here in the Appalachian mountains by our ancestors, why was the music carried down through the generations in my area, but the sessions "rules" were not. Could it be that most of the folks around here are of Scots-Irish descent? Are we just not as serious? Or is it just an Irish thing?

I will add that it was understood that a player needed to have some competence to play at a music makin', often, the best players would have to be coaxed(and that sometimes was in the form of a clear liquid in a mason jar) to play, since many were reluctant to play in front of others, especially strangers.Most everyone around here is kin if you look a few generations back. Also, I know of no one who would ever be made to feel bad or put down if their level of skill was not up to the others. We were just having a good time makin some music.

[talasiga]

I guess that's what I find kinda wierd about it. Since there are so many tunes and songs that were handed down to us here in the Appalachian mountains by our ancestors, why was the music carried down through the generations in my area, but the sessions "rules" were not. Could it be that most of the folks around here are of Scots-Irish descent? Are we just not as serious? Or is it just an Irish thing?

I will add that it was understood that a player needed to have some competence to play at a music makin', often, the best players would have to be coaxed(and that sometimes was in the form of a clear liquid in a mason jar) to play, since many were reluctant to play in front of others, especially strangers.Most everyone around here is kin if you look a few generations back. Also, I know of no one who would ever be made to feel bad or put down if their level of skill was not up to the others. We were just having a good time makin some music.

This is the stuff of a vibrant, living FOLK tradition.
Nice post.

[The Weekenders]

Ditto to cowtime. I bet Irish sessions were somewhat like that with a big difference: in the 18th century and onwards, music, dancing and comportment lessons were conducted by travelling masters who received pay or lodging to put up in villages for a month or more, according to Breathnach (and other sources). So even though this was folk music, it was also polished and coached, which brought the level up. In a sense, the competitions of today continue that aspect, so its "folk" music with a difference. I don't think Appalachia had such a phenomenon.

Then, you take it out of its country of origin and transplant it here. No wonder people get such mixed messages and expectations.

Me? I just like seeing the word "snobery" every day at the top of the pile.

[janice]

What it comes down to is this-

Only play music with people you like to play with. Problem solved!

Playing ability/level is only one part of the puzzle, personal chemistry/attitude/philosophy is just as (or more) important IMHO. When you find people with whom you are a musical "kindred spirit" hold on to them tight and cherish them!

Ah, I'm gettin' all weepy just typing this.

[BrassBlower]

Of course, my neck-of-the-woods is pretty much an ITrad wasteland, but gospel and old-time sessions are sometimes held in the smaller towns. These are usually open sessions where "pick, pass, or play" rules are observed. The problem with these is that there is invariably a person or two who decides to "play" every time their turn comes, insists on playing or singing their own compositions, and somewhere in the middle of the tune figures out it's in the wrong key for their voice and changes keys!

I would say if you are a newbie to one of these types of sessions, you should make it your personal rule to pass on your first turn, listen to the other players and pick on your second turn, then play something you and a lot of other people know on your third turn.