Chieftain V-4 low D whistle tour

[Ted]

I had the whistle a while longer and sent it on to Ecohawk. Was very busy getting out of town and didn't have time for much more playing. My opinions did not change after I did play more. I just couldn't get into enjoying the whistle. The soft unfocused tone and low volume of the whistle are just not my cup of tea. Someone may like it but I want a lot more from any whistle. I doubt it would be suitable for even a group of dulcimers, banjos autoharps and other instruments. For that, the Burke may be a better choice, given its strong bell note. I cannot compare it to the later Chieftains like the V3 or Optima as I haven't tried them.

[ecohawk]

I got the v4 in good shape from Ted earlier today. Thanks Ted. Monday evening is generally when I work mostly on practice with my low whistles so the timing was perfect.

I've spent a few minutes reading through other reviews to see where my opinion differs or maybe I can add value. I've spent about two hours playing this Chieftain V4 against my MK, Burke, Goldie, Lambe and Reviol. All very different whistles for sure. I agree completely with pancelticpiper about tuning and volume, particularly the comparison to other whistles. I have really big hands so tubing sizes, hole sizes and spacing don't make much difference to me except on small whistles. I see Ted's point about his preference for sharp hole edges but I found these scalloped holes easy to get used to as well.

This is a really comfortable and easy low whistle to play. There's a mellowness to it that is somewhat satisfying but I already get that from my Reviol, which has more volume, and my newly tweaked Lambe, which is a bit quieter. I believe the masses of folks looking for a low D to learn on, or those who don't need volume, will find this a very satisfying whistle. If you need to be heard among other musicians or are not or skilled enough to adjust to the breath push for raising flat notes or backing off on sharps (depending on where you decide to set the tuning slide) this could be a frustrating whistle to play. If you are skilled, or just not that picky about pitch, it won't matter much.

I like a loud, resonant brash whistle, one that you can feel vibrating in your fingers, with lots of dynamic range on each note. My Goldie is the defacto standard in my experience though I'm told the new Reyburn I just ordered will fill that bill too. The Burke has it if you have bigger lung capacity. The MK has it in the middle ranges. I pulled out my ancient Gold Chieftain Brass whistle out of curiosity. It's also very different than the V4, with a haunting vibrant low range and a surprisingly sweet high range though always just a tiny bit flat - about 10c or so throughout. Though I haven't played other Chieftain low D's I'm told my Gold is just a brass Chieftain OS (NR?) FWIW. The V4 played against my old Chieftain has a much softer flowing tone, seemingly like Phil describes it.

I'll play it again tomorrow and if I'll update this if I change my impressions, then ship it down south on Thursday to SKC.

If I didn't have the Reviol or the Lambe I'd consider the V4 for special circumstances. But I do so I won't . As always YMMV.

Thanks to Phil and Retired for putting this together. It is a valuable service to our community.

ecohawk

[pancelticpiper]

Phil just posted his new V4 video on his website:

http://www.kerrywhistles.com/movie.php?groupID=46

Scroll down to the bottom (tab on the right side) to see the V4 video-it's the last one. Might have some new interest in the tour after seeing this one-good job Phil! He plays some other whistles in comparison too, which are interesting to hear as well.

Well now... interesting to go back and give this video another listen, after putting the V4 through its paces, and spend a lot more time playing my MK, and a bit of time on my other Low Ds also.

He spends some time demonstrating how high B will, if underblown, break or fall to the low octave on the MK and Reyburn. For sure this is true, and I've found that Low Ds which have strong low octaves, particularly a strong low E, will have a high B which is loud, finicky, and verging on harshness. The Low Ds which have had a buttery sweet 2nd octave and easy high B have had wimpy low notes, and I've accepted this as an unavoidable tradeoff or compromise in Low D design. However, it's interesting to note that when I tested this very feature, high B, on a group of Low Ds I found that the V4 does it exactly like the MK does: underblow high B slightly and it breaks. I could easily have made a video showing the V4's high B breaking, and played my MK in such a way that high B sounds fine. It's all in the blowing.

I thought that, when he allowed the MK and Reyburn to get off the intentionally breaking high B, and play them throughout their range (as he gave the V4 ample opportunity to do), both whistles had noticeably richer/more complex/more centred timbres in my opinion. I came away from the video very impressed with the maple-head Reyburn and have one coming my way soon! Yes he selected a room which showed off the V4's tone to best advantage, but the room did likewise for the other whistles.

Interesting how much time he spent extolling the quietness of the V4 (neighbors, elderly, childrens, small flats, etc) and disparaging loud whistles. To each his own, and I'm sure there are people for whom this is important, but in many performance situations (sessions, up on stage) the low range of even the loudest Low Ds is barely sufficient. Even with the red MK I used to have, the loudest Low D I've ever had or tried, the low range would get lost in an average-sized session. The fact that the V4 puts out the lowest volume of the several Low Ds I tested, and requires the most air, tells me that there's air going to waste somehow. The MK is a marvel of efficiency, having more volume, and taking less air, than any Low D I've had.

I disagree with his inference on the video that the volume differential between the softest low-octave notes and loudest 2nd-octave notes is less on the V4 than on other low Ds. True that having a sharper 2nd octave, which the V4, MK, and Susato all do, means that the low octave must be fully blown to get it up to the pitch of the 2nd octave, which helps even out the volume of the octaves.

About the scolloped tone holes, I do like the 'lived-in' feel they have, but I don't think they have any influence on playability.

[ecohawk]

Well folks, I came down with a pretty bad cold over the holiday so I waited until today to play the V4 again. My opinion has not changed to I'm shipping the whistle off tomorrow to SKC. I've cleaned it up and washed it thoroughly with soapy water, Purel and alcohol so no possible germs could survive.

Sorry for the delay.

ecohawk

[greenspiderweb]

Phil just posted his new V4 video on his website:

http://www.kerrywhistles.com/movie.php?groupID=46

Scroll down to the bottom (tab on the right side) to see the V4 video-it's the last one. Might have some new interest in the tour after seeing this one-good job Phil! He plays some other whistles in comparison too, which are interesting to hear as well.

Well now... interesting to go back and give this video another listen, after putting the V4 through its paces, and spend a lot more time playing my MK, and a bit of time on my other Low Ds also.

He spends some time demonstrating how high B will, if underblown, break or fall to the low octave on the MK and Reyburn. For sure this is true, and I've found that Low Ds which have strong low octaves, particularly a strong low E, will have a high B which is loud, finicky, and verging on harshness. The Low Ds which have had a buttery sweet 2nd octave and easy high B have had wimpy low notes, and I've accepted this as an unavoidable tradeoff or compromise in Low D design. However, it's interesting to note that when I tested this very feature, high B, on a group of Low Ds I found that the V4 does it exactly like the MK does: underblow high B slightly and it breaks. I could easily have made a video showing the V4's high B breaking, and played my MK in such a way that high B sounds fine. It's all in the blowing.

I thought that, when he allowed the MK and Reyburn to get off the intentionally breaking high B, and play them throughout their range (as he gave the V4 ample opportunity to do), both whistles had noticeably richer/more complex/more centred timbres in my opinion. I came away from the video very impressed with the maple-head Reyburn and have one coming my way soon! Yes he selected a room which showed off the V4's tone to best advantage, but the room did likewise for the other whistles.

Interesting how much time he spent extolling the quietness of the V4 (neighbors, elderly, childrens, small flats, etc) and disparaging loud whistles. To each his own, and I'm sure there are people for whom this is important, but in many performance situations (sessions, up on stage) the low range of even the loudest Low Ds is barely sufficient. Even with the red MK I used to have, the loudest Low D I've ever had or tried, the low range would get lost in an average-sized session. The fact that the V4 puts out the lowest volume of the several Low Ds I tested, and requires the most air, tells me that there's air going to waste somehow. The MK is a marvel of efficiency, having more volume, and taking less air, than any Low D I've had.

I disagree with his inference on the video that the volume differential between the softest low-octave notes and loudest 2nd-octave notes is less on the V4 than on other low Ds. True that having a sharper 2nd octave, which the V4, MK, and Susato all do, means that the low octave must be fully blown to get it up to the pitch of the 2nd octave, which helps even out the volume of the octaves.

About the scolloped tone holes, I do like the 'lived-in' feel they have, but I don't think they have any influence on playability.

Some intesting observations, Richard, thank you. But, you know, all of us come with different perspectives on what we want, like, and hear with various whistles/flutes, etc, and it can only be judged by ourselves on a one to one basis. So I don't really see what all the commotion is when it's our individual tastes that we have to judge the whistles by-our own set of values for what we deem important. If you like a loud whistle, and you only play in sessions or with others, then surely you are going to want a different whistle than I do. Or if your hearing isn't as sharp as others who play quietly on their own, then there are bound to be vast differences in what we hear and judge to be "good tone", for our purposes. Can you actually hear a "piercing tone" in a recording, or do you have to judge for yourself? Do you have neighbors that may influence your playing and preferences?

So, let's just remember that everyone of us has their own set of values for a whistle, that isn't necessarily the next person's viewpoint, and just say what we like and don't from our own perspectives. Loudest, richest, quietest, best tuned, et al, and we will be on our way to judging whistles and other instruments for ourselves, not just for the reviews we read of others opinions, for whatever they bring to the table.

Can Phil Hardy play a whistle to his own advantage, and sales point-sure he can! Just like all of us in our reviews. But I will judge the V4 for what I like and hear, if it ever gets back to the East Coast before I go on my merry way!

[Peter Duggan]

Some intesting observations, Richard, thank you. But, you know, all of us come with different perspectives on what we want, like, and hear with various whistles/flutes, etc, and it can only be judged by ourselves on a one to one basis. So I don't really see what all the commotion is when it's our individual tastes that we have to judge the whistles by-our own set of values for what we deem important. If you like a loud whistle, and you only play in sessions or with others, then surely you are going to want a different whistle than I do. Or if your hearing isn't as sharp as others who play quietly on their own, then there are bound to be vast differences in what we hear and judge to be "good tone", for our purposes. Can you actually hear a "piercing tone" in a recording, or do you have to judge for yourself? Do you have neighbors that may influence your playing and preferences?

So, let's just remember that everyone of us has their own set of values for a whistle, that isn't necessarily the next person's viewpoint, and just say what we like and don't from our own perspectives. Loudest, richest, quietest, best tuned, et al, and we will be on our way to judging whistles and other instruments for ourselves, not just for the reviews we read of others opinions, for whatever they bring to the table.

So why this apparent criticism of Richard when the post you quote strikes me as having more to do with objective reporting of fact than subjective taste concerns. Since Phil wants to sell whistles and it seems clear (as I suggested here and here on the first page of this thread) from his video that he's blowing and reporting to the point of manipulation, questioning the objectivity of his comparisons seems entirely fair to me.

Can Phil Hardy play a whistle to his own advantage, and sales point-sure he can!

See above!

Just like all of us in our reviews.

Disagree strongly! If I'm reviewing something or describing it for sale, I try (as I'm sure a look at any of my listings here or talk to anyone who's bought anything from me would confirm) to be ruthlessly objective about its good and bad points. So of course there's nothing wrong with Phil aiming for a quiet whistle and promoting it as such, but afraid those breaking B comparisons etc. are still dodgy!

[greenspiderweb]

Some intesting observations, Richard, thank you. But, you know, all of us come with different perspectives on what we want, like, and hear with various whistles/flutes, etc, and it can only be judged by ourselves on a one to one basis. So I don't really see what all the commotion is when it's our individual tastes that we have to judge the whistles by-our own set of values for what we deem important. If you like a loud whistle, and you only play in sessions or with others, then surely you are going to want a different whistle than I do. Or if your hearing isn't as sharp as others who play quietly on their own, then there are bound to be vast differences in what we hear and judge to be "good tone", for our purposes. Can you actually hear a "piercing tone" in a recording, or do you have to judge for yourself? Do you have neighbors that may influence your playing and preferences?

So, let's just remember that everyone of us has their own set of values for a whistle, that isn't necessarily the next person's viewpoint, and just say what we like and don't from our own perspectives. Loudest, richest, quietest, best tuned, et al, and we will be on our way to judging whistles and other instruments for ourselves, not just for the reviews we read of others opinions, for whatever they bring to the table.

So why this apparent criticism of Richard when the post you quote strikes me as having more to do with objective reporting of fact than subjective taste concerns. Since Phil wants to sell whistles and it seems clear (as I suggested here and here on the first page of this thread) from his video that he's blowing and reporting to the point of manipulation, questioning the objectivity of his comparisons seems entirely fair to me.

Can Phil Hardy play a whistle to his own advantage, and sales point-sure he can!

See above!

Just like all of us in our reviews.

Disagree strongly! If I'm reviewing something or describing it for sale, I try (as I'm sure a look at any of my listings here or talk to anyone who's bought anything from me would confirm) to be ruthlessly objective about its good and bad points. So of course there's nothing wrong with Phil aiming for a quiet whistle and promoting it as such, but afraid those breaking B comparisons etc. are still dodgy!

Relax Peter, not a criticism, just an observance. Sometimes we reflect too deeply on what our own needs and observations are that we forget that others have entirely different viewpoints. I'm just saying, judge it for yourself, as I have always said. Play on!

[pancelticpiper]

If you like a loud whistle, and you only play in sessions or with others, then surely you are going to want a different whistle than I do.

I completely agree. It's why I said "to each his own, and I'm sure that there are many people for whom this is important" there. I did feel it appropriate to point out, however, that with even the loudest Low D whistles being barely adequate for many performance situations it was interesting that he spent so much time disparaging loud whistles.

...there are bound to be vast differences in what we hear and judge to be "good tone"...

I completely agree. It's why, in my initial review, I began with the caveat that I was now entering into a subjective area.

Loudest... quietest, best tuned... and we will be on our way to judging whistles and other instruments for ourselves, not just for the reviews we read of others opinions...

I fully agree with the latter half of that statement. I've said over and over again on these boards that people need to play whistles for themselves and not rely on reviews and YouTube clips.

Now about "loudest, quietest, best tuned" these are not subjective things but things which can be objectively measured. We can play up and down the scale of a whistle, blowing at the pressure required to play the scale in tune, and measure the volume of each note. (Yes you can blow the various notes at different pressures, getting different volumes, but this makes the notes go flat and sharp. Each note of a whistle plays in tune at one and only one specific pressure, and the volume of the note when thus blown can be measured.)

About tuning, we can play up the low octave on an even steady breath and see where the various notes are pitched, and play up the 2nd octave and see where the various notes are pitched. Once again this is a measureable objective reality. (Yes a person can do breath-control acrobatics and force a whistle with a bad scale to play in tune.)

The relative tuning of the octaves is built into the whistle and also can be measured.

[SKC]

The whistle has arrived in Southern California, safe and sound. Will post some thoughts when I've had a chance to to put it through its paces.
Cheers,
S. C.

[pancelticpiper]

I pulled out my ancient Gold Chieftain Brass whistle... a haunting vibrant low range and a surprisingly sweet high range

Yes I think the Chieftan Gold I used to own had the best 2nd octave of any Low D I've tried, sweet and warm and very well-behaved.

But the low octave was too wimpy for my liking and the whole thing was too heavy for me. I actually bought a Bari Sax strap to play it with, which helped a lot.

[SKC]

Well, after spending an hour or so with this whistle I have mixed feelings. I will say, in my opinion at any rate, Phil has accomplished his goal. The instrument is quiet, doesn't take much air, has comfortable finger spacing, has a very tame, accommodating upper octave, and plays quite well in spite of these usually compromising characteristics. It is, indeed a low whistle that won't wake the kids. I like the look of the instrument, the mouthpiece is very comfortable, and the overall workmanship is very nice. The chamfered finger holes are a problem for me as they cause some of my fingers, particularly the lower third, to have unusual difficulty getting and keeping a good seal. Its also worth noting that the second hole is very large. I found it to be rather sluggish, both in response to ornaments and tongued articulations, and a bit touchy at the octave break. (The latter would likely no longer be a problem with more familiarity.) As I said, I am impressed with the second octave. Its one of the easiest I've ever played; almost too easy really. The lower octave isn't too weak either, considering, but I like to be able to push the lower octave pretty hard if inclined, and I didn't find the V4 able to stand up to much pushing. One of the strangest moments I had was realising I was actually blowing too hard. The breath requirement seems nearly comparable to my Dixon High D, though with more back pressure. I don't think I've ever found a whistle with such high back pressure and low air requirement. Never played a low whistle quite like it. As for the tone, I don't care for it from the players perspective (thought is sounded a bit like it has a head cold), but others told me it sounded very nice, so I suspect there is a difference in experience depending on the listeners angle. Sadly I don't have any recording equipment to test this. More than anything, the whole experience has left me curious to to compare the V4 to a V3 and an Optima. So, pros would be I like the aesthetics and craftsmanship, the upper octave is lovely, and its a very tame whistle. I just don't like tame whistles, and if you like honkers, you will likely be happier looking elsewhere. However, if you want a quiet, tame, good looking low D that doesn't require huffing and puffing or acrobatic finger stretching, this just might be for you. It could make a very good candidate for someone in the market for a first low whistle, though I would not be surprised if you outgrow it. With that in mind, the only real con I can see is the price. Its not quite enough whistle for $195 (though I don't think $145 would be stretching it), and a Dixon polymer would also deliver similar characteristics, slash back pressure, at just a little over $100. All in all, I'll be curious to see how this new model fairs.
Cheers,
S. K.

[pancelticpiper]

doesn't take much air

How did you test the volume of air required?

What I did, when I had the whistle, was to try to get a 'real world' sense of air requirement by playing through the 2nd part of a certain jig on a lungful of air.

I tested each Low D several times to get a sense of the average (because I realize that not every 'lungful' is going to be exactly the same).

The Chieftan V4 took the most air of any of the six Low Ds I tested, even more than the Burke, which is well-known for its large air appetite.

Least air required > most air required:

MK > Overton > Dixon > Susato > Burke > Chieftan V4.

The diffence between the most efficient, the MK and Overton, and the least, the Burke and Chieftan, is quite apparent when playing, and affects how you phrase tunes. The Burke and Chieftan require considerably more frequent breath-spaces to be created in jigs and reels and prevent long sweeping phrases in airs.

Odd that the volume output of the Chieftan is the lowest of those six (loudest > softest)

MK > Burke/Susato/Overton (very close) > Dixon > Chieftan V4.

Where is all the air going?

BTW I just got an old Reyburn maple-head Low D very much like Phil is playing in the video there and it's wonderful. Quite loud, at least as loud as the MK, but with a completely different voice, a haunting dark pure Native American thing rather than the MK's gravelly Louis Armstrong/Kaval thing. The tone on both the Reyburn and MK have a good centered 'core'.

[Ted]

The end use the whistle is for must be brought into any judgement of the whistles usefulness. Like Pancelticpiper, I want a whistle for sessions, recording and playing with others. The V4 does not fill the bill for me. The balance between octaves is nice but the tone lacks core and I find it has too much air in it and took too much air for my uses. I was shocked when Greenspiderweb and Feadoggie said they didn't like the tone of the Reyburn which was on tour earlier. Everyone else on that tour was happy with how it played and sounded. I tried it against several flutes and I, as well as others, noted it was most similar in tone to an Olwell flute. If used as an "apartment" whistle, the Reyburn might be too loud, as it likes to be played near the upper end of its pressure range to sound its best. For quiet playing, the Reyburn would not be my choice either, but that is not what I want a whistle for. Several flute players who tried it loved the tone and the intuitive way it played. I agree with Ecohawk that there are other whistles more suited than the V4 for low volume playing, although the V4 may be just what some are looking for. There is no accounting for taste, but there are at least two camps in what is desired in a whistle. Each camp will like one type but not the other.

[SKC]

Interesting point pancelticpiper. My first assesment wasn't half as scientific as yours. I currently have only one other whistle to compare with, an Alba Vibe, so I can't be half as thorough as you have been. (Nicely analysed by the way. Now I really want to give an MK, a Rayburn, and a Goldie a lash...) I modified your test by playing through an entire tune (a tune from Brian Finnegan called, I believe, The North Star, if anyone wants to know) both A and B parts, on one breath until running out of air, and found the V4 to last almost twice as long as the Alba. I could go through A and B and the first two or three bars of A again on the V4, but couldn't get to the end of the B part with the Alba. Currently my main whistles are the Alba for the low and a set of Susatos in Bb through D for the high, all of which I'm told are a bit on the high end in the air requirement department, and the V4 is a very different beast. It feels almost like I'm holding my breath by comparison. Though now that you mention it, the V4 does seem to take more breath than its volume would indicate. I should also mention that the more I play the V4 the more obvious it becomes that the scalloped finger holes are making it very difficult for me to play this whistle. Not only does it make it harder to get the notes to speak correctly, but it also seems to effect air requirement, though this is likely just as much a concentration issue as a mechanical one. I would be very interested to try the V4 head on a body with non chamfered holes.

[pancelticpiper]

If I needed a quiet Low D the Dixon is nearly as quiet as the V4 but takes much less air and is the most ergonomic Low D of the group I tried (thinner tube and extremely lightweight).

Maybe because of its conical bore, the Dixon performs in a slightly more flutelike way than most Low Ds, something subtle, something in the voicing. I liked the one-piece prototype Tony let me try at the NAMM show even better... it was very special, and performed in a clearly more flutelike way than any Low D whistle I've tried, and put me in mind of the very best Copelands made 20 or 30 years ago.

I wish the 2nd octave of the Dixon wasn't so flat. I find it difficult to underblow the low octave enough, and overblow the 2nd octave enough, to keep the octaves in line.

I like the octave relationship of the V4, somewhat sharp as on the MK, so that you really need to 'blow out' the low register and somewhat underblow the 2nd octave to keep the octaves in line. This helps even out the volume differential.