To thumbhole or not to thumbhole - that is the question!

[gregwhistle]

Quenas have thumbholes ... how much more traditional can you get?

Not only for c-nat, but crack the thumbhole open a bit and you're in second octave, without even really overblowing (at least not enough to notice) ... works that way on the quena, anyway.

[gregwhistle]

I find myself playing 10-hole ocarinas more and more these days, and they have two thumbholes. Maybe somebody makes a whistle with a G# thumbhole as well as a Cnat one?

Back in 1981 I saw a ten-hole plastic descant recorder in a shop in Istanbul (or actually 12-hole, the lowest two holes were split). I didn't buy it and have been regretting not doing so for years. I've no idea what the fingering system was; there was no instruction book for it. I assume it was designed for the Turkish tonal system. I've never seen one since and never seen any record of such a thing having existed.

And then there's the ten hole modern sopilka ...

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[ubizmo]

Hi Cris! Sorry to hear about the theft of your Burke.

I have one whistle with a thumb hole: a Shearwater. I think it's not essential, but the bottom line is this: Anything at all that you can do without a thumb hole you can do with one, but there are some things you can do with a thumb hole that you can't do without one, such as a smooth slide from C to D. So in having the thumb hole you gain something and lose nothing.

[Mr.Gumby]

a smooth slide from C to D

That's perfectly doable without a thumb hole.

[ubizmo]

a smooth slide from C to D

That's perfectly doable without a thumb hole.

I was mistaken. It's really just the clarity of the Cnat and the ease of sliding up to it without half-holing that are the advantages.

I don't miss it on the whistles that lack it, but on the whistle that has it I tend to use it.

[DavieD]

I don't miss it on the whistles that lack it, but on the whistle that has it I tend to use it.

[Cris Gale]

Hi Cris! Sorry to hear about the theft of your Burke.

I have one whistle with a thumb hole: a Shearwater. I think it's not essential, but the bottom line is this: Anything at all that you can do without a thumb hole you can do with one, but there are some things you can do with a thumb hole that you can't do without one, such as a smooth slide from C to D. So in having the thumb hole you gain something and lose nothing.

Thanks ubizmo. I ordered another one about 10 days ago (with the thumb hole). I figure I'll tape over it if I don't like it but I have a suspicion that I'll really like it. That said - i really miss my Burke. I've been playing a Feadog instead and it just isn't nearly as forgiving or fun to play.

[MTGuru]

I've tried the thumbhole a few times, so I know what it feels like and how it works. If I happened to have a whistle with a C-nat hole I might use it occasionally if the fingering ergonomics of a particular phrase suggested it. But as it is, after a number of years playing many different whistles, the thought "Gee, I sure wish I had a C-nat thumbhole" has crossed my mind ... well, never.

Just to keep myself honest ... I've borrowed a whistle with a C thumbhole from a friend, and will spend some extended time with it over the next few days, beyond the the few brief occasions I've played with one. I'm willing to be convinced (or to convince myself) that it's worthwhile and not superfluous or harmful. But only some real playing of real tunes can do that. We'll see.

[benhall.1]

Well, I'm going to keep myself dishonest and say that I've never tried it. And I don't like it.

[maki]

I've tried the thumbhole a few times, so I know what it feels like and how it works. If I happened to have a whistle with a C-nat hole I might use it occasionally if the fingering ergonomics of a particular phrase suggested it. But as it is, after a number of years playing many different whistles, the thought "Gee, I sure wish I had a C-nat thumbhole" has crossed my mind ... well, never.

Just to keep myself honest ... I've borrowed a whistle with a C thumbhole from a friend, and will spend some extended time with it over the next few days, beyond the the few brief occasions I've played with one. I'm willing to be convinced (or to convince myself) that it's worthwhile and not superfluous or harmful. But only some real playing of real tunes can do that. We'll see.

Keep us posted.

[mdburke]

A link to my past comments on the thumb hole has been posted on this forum. I will try not to be too repetitive, but wanted to make a couple of comments on the subject.

When I began making whistles, I had a few people ask for the thumb hole to be added to their whistles and within about three years, they constitued about 2 percent of sales.

That number has grown over the past 10 years to about 10% of all the instruments I make now being sold with the option.

I personally do not sell anyone on the idea and am happy to make the 6 hole ones or the 7 hole ones equally. As an engineer, however, I will say that technically, the thumb hole is a superior design because the whistle can be designed to play with more natural tone in all notes, and compromises to allow better fork fingerings may be less important, therefore.

The thumb hole will over blow accurately to the octave of the flattened 7th, which allows for two additional notes on the G scale on a D whistle and the sound of the thumb hole is identical to the C# rather than being a bit muted as in any fork fingered natural C that one plays. I know that there will be debate on whether the tone is diminished much, but the blocking of the tone holes below the top one affect the spectral content of the note because of the lower cutoff frequency of that small top tonehole. It is essential that the top tonehole have a lower cutoff frequency, by the way for a fork fingering to work by definition, so strangling the toneholes below it will have more effect than the desired one of flattening the 7th, no matter what. These changes will be less noticed in whistles with thicker toneholes because they already have low cutoff frequencies anyway and that figures into their sound profile as well as their transient response profile. Please remember that I am speaking technically, not as a person who is dictating what sounds best and no doubt everyone can like something different. I am merely discussing why the thumb hole is technically superior. A similar argument can be made in favor of silver Boehm system flutes over older small toneholed Pratten system wooden flutes, but we know that those older flutes are well beloved in the TRAD, though they are not seen in many concert halls since Boehm's superior design appeared, and that in great part explains their being available for Trad purposes, I am told.

In terms of speed of play, there is no evidence at all that the use of the thumb hole will slow the playing of anyone skilled in it's use. I have samples of Brian McCoy on my web site playing one of my Aluminum Session instruments and he always uses a thumb hole on all his whistles. Brian has crisp and clean ornamentation that happens so fast, it is difficult to hear all that he is doing at times, so one cannot say that it has slowed him much... By the way, Brian also plays a fine Silver flute as well and plays in a great Irish style, just as Joanie Madden, so those silver flutes can make Irish music pretty well and the huge toneholes with high cutoff frequencies make the tones bright and clear and loud at the same time.

In terms of alternatives to thumb holes. I have met and spoken to a number of Irish players who do not use thumb holes, but they laugh at using fork fingerings as well and say that fork fingerings slow them down too much and merely half hole when they want a natural C. I have watched them play and it seems to work very well for them and they say that fork fingerings are much more common in Ireland than cross fingerings.

No matter how you play a natural C, however, there is an adjustment to the fingering you want to use, the use of the thumb hole or the half holing technique. One must decide what is best for them and then practice that way and it will become the most natural and fastest and easiest way to play. When you decide, I can make the whistle just as you like it.. I am neutral on what is best for anyone, for they must decide for themselves that question.
That more and more people are using them, however means that some people have decided to commit to using them, so they must have attractions for some players, at least.

Michael Burke

[Ted]

I just finished recording for a CD using my new Burke low C. On a slow tune requiring a first octave C (in D nomenclature) the number of fingers down to obtain the note in tune yielded a lower volume in the note. At that point I saw a use for the thumb hole. Fortunately, the engineer was able to increase the volume of it in post production. Michael, can you add the thumb hole in an already built whistle, or would that affect tuning on other notes?

[Thomaston]

Ya know, I've never been too keen on the idea of a C nat thumbhole, but after hearing about the F nat thumbhole it got me thinking. It would be cool to have a whistle with a low C pinkie hole (like Paul Busman's D+ whistle) and also the two thumbholes. You'd have a D whistle and a C whistle all in one.

[R Small]

F natural thumbhole. That's a whole new can of worms.

[highwood]

2 thumbholes, and a low pinkie hole - why not not go the whole way and have ten holes... now the only question is what would this tenth hole do?