From a more gentle time?

[Cayden]

OK before this gets bogged down in what could, would, should have been or what we would have liked it to be, educate yourself to what was:

Tom Morrison : Maggie in the Woods

Tom Morrison : The Rising Sun

James Ennis, James Cawley & Frank O Higgins: The Battle of Clontarf

James Cawley, Frank O Higgins, Billy Andrews and unknown celloplayer : Flogging reel

Charley Higgins & Jack Dolan : The mouse in the cupboard

Paddy Cronin & Frank Neylon : Connemara Stockings

[Flutered]

What was .. when people started recording. Surely it would be a mistake to assume this is typical of what was played in 1823 or 1723 etc. And was there any agenda in selecting the people to be recorded - are early recordings typical of the norm of the day? I suppose there are no answers to these questions and early recordings give the best clues but shouldn't be taken as gospel or proof of any given point.
The recording of 'Battle of Clontarf' is curious - I would know first melody as Brian Borus March which is a close enough name but they seem to have other tunes in their medley - Molly Halpin appears near the end. What are other tunes or are they other parts of Battle..

[Gordon]

I also wonder about the term "gentle"... I know of really no ITM players, not - of course - counting new-age celt garbage - I would call gentle in their playing. Slower, perhaps, with less ornaments than others, maybe. ITM is a rhythmic music, so we're really talking levels of power, not the absence of it. Earlier, Jack Coen, Rafferty were mentioned as "other than", as if their playing is sweet and soft. It isn't, not if you've ever sat in a kitchen with them, or beside them at a session. Galway playing is usually a bit slower, grander - but gentle? Not really... Melodic inventions instead of multiple rolls, but the lift is a pulse, not a soothing music to meditate against. And most of them can play fast enough when called to do so - breakneck playing seems to be more of an urban thing - but, again, I can think of no ITM flute player, old or young, in any region, that approaches his/her flute "gently".

Regarding the missing of teeth and flutes - I think you'll find this more a problem of old age and (lack of) dental care... Lots of old blues players, too, missing teeth, playing guitars, not flutes... But, then, maybe that's a Hendrix thing, from years of playing with their teeth...

[Cayden]

And was there any agenda in selecting the people to be recorded - are early recordings typical of the norm of the day?

It's a fairly representative selection of what I could easily pull off the net. For the earlier part of the 20th century we mostly have to rely on commercial recordings to get an image of the state of playing of the time, which is somewhat unfortunate but that's how it is.

The Clontarf piece is a number of tunes cobbled together in the fashion of the descriptive pieces. The piper is James Ennis, father of Seamus and the effort represents in it's own way the players of the Gaelic revival of the time. James Cawley appears as a mighty huffy powerful player in all his recordings.

And I agree with Gordon there has always been a 'sweetness' but the flute is the most physical of all instruments used in irish music, both in it's demands of the player and in it's 'presence'. I posted a picture here some years ago of Catherine McEvoy, Eamonn Cotter, Marcus O Murchu and John Wynne playing for a couple of step dancers, you could actually 'feel' the physical presence of their flute when they were playing, the air vibrating as they hit certain notes. There's no room for 'gentle' where the flute is concerned.

[bradhurley]

Years ago, when I was barely capable with a whistle and had only recently acquired my first flute, I recall reading of -- someone. Probably a name I'd now recognise, although that might have been my first encounter with it. Anyway, one of the pantheon of irish fluters of the last pre-revival generation, and the passage that struck me went something like "like all aging flute players, eventually he lost his front teeth..."

In fact I believe the passage you're referring to was about Willie Clancy. Pat Mitchell wrote, in the introduction to the Dance Music of Willie Clancy: "Eventually he suffered the fate that befalls all flute-players--he lost his teeth."

That sentence gave me a bit of a scare when I first read it in the late 70s and it kept me from taking up the flute sooner than I did. But I've never seen any evidence other than Cork's anecdote about himself to suggest that flute playing can cause you to lose your choppers.

As for gentleness in an earlier era of Irish flute playing, I agree that there's no evidence for it and any speculation about earlier pre-recorded styles of playing is pure conjecture so it's kind of pointless to argue about it.

When I first met Jack Coen he was mostly playing his old Wheatstone flute, but he had become enamored of an old German one and was playing that quite a bit. It had small toneholes and was quieter than the Wheatstone, yet he got plenty of volume out of it and I would hardly describe his playing as gentle.

[monkey587]

Earlier, Jack Coen, Rafferty were mentioned as "other than", as if their playing is sweet and soft. It isn't, not if you've ever sat in a kitchen with them, or beside them at a session.

I haven't done that (yet) but I agree with you, I just expected that they would be offered as examples because of their ages because of the stereotype impression of them.

[Cayden]

I add two more fluteplayers (and pipers and whistleplayers) of the older generation. Both 'locals', in the sense they are West Clare players, Clare always being seen as one of the gentler styles by the academics.

Both recordings are from the 1960s, first from Caherrush, Miltown Malbay the late JC Talty who is generally regarded as one of the more refined fluteplayers of his time and place (and rightly so). He played an ivory headed German flute. Second is Michael Falsey, from Seafield, Quilty. No longer active as a fluteplayer but well into his eighties, he is still going well on both pipes and whistle. Michael learned from his father and could be said to carry a style that goes back well into 19th century. Michael and his father, with Joe Cunneen can be seen in the picture that is on the cover of Hammie Hamilton's flute-tutor.

In spite of the sound quality (decaying tapes), it's easy to hear the label 'gentle' (as I understand it's meaning applied for the use of this thread) will not come to mind.

[Cork]

Years ago, when I was barely capable with a whistle and had only recently acquired my first flute, I recall reading of -- someone. Probably a name I'd now recognise, although that might have been my first encounter with it. Anyway, one of the pantheon of irish fluters of the last pre-revival generation, and the passage that struck me went something like "like all aging flute players, eventually he lost his front teeth..."

In fact I believe the passage you're referring to was about Willie Clancy. Pat Mitchell wrote, in the introduction to the Dance Music of Willie Clancy: "Eventually he suffered the fate that befalls all flute-players--he lost his teeth."

That sentence gave me a bit of a scare when I first read it in the late 70s and it kept me from taking up the flute sooner than I did. But I've never seen any evidence other than Cork's anecdote about himself to suggest that flute playing can cause you to lose your choppers...

Well, I did make a qualified statement. For instance, it's known as to how low the tones of a flute could go, but on the other hand it's interesting to explore just how high the tones of a flute could go, and, as the point of the matter, the higher tones do call for faster, more focused air streams, which are the product of higher air pressures. Again, had I never gone beyond two and a half octaves or so, I might never have had any troubles, but going to three and a half octaves is another matter, as a Boehm flute could. My troubles didn't happen overnight, but eventually my upper front teeth worked loose, from being pushed inwards by the embouchure strength required for the higher air pressures, and from then being pushed outwards, or back into normal position, by using the teeth for doing what teeth were meant to do, all of which then set the stage for infection troubles. BTW, I'm not alone in such an experience, as I personally know other flute players who have had such troubles.

Basically, it's an ugly situation, yet it doesn't seem to have any negative effect on flute playing. Actually, I joke about it, saying that teeth only get in the way of one's air stream! However, I can also understand that such a visible loss could have an effect on a player, such that their confidence could be badly hammered. Indeed, my own playing fell into a slump for a few years, but eventually my love for the instrument took control, and that's the way it went.

Here, on the C&F board, where most ITM playing is done in the lower octaves, it doesn't seem likely that the vast majority of players could encounter any such troubles. However, keep in mind the legendary Icarus, whose waxed wings melted when he flew too close to the sun, or, in other words, perhaps there could be consequences for pushing a flute too high.

:-)

[Julia Delaney]

perhaps there could be consequences for pushing a flute too high.

Just say "No" to the third octave?

Don't play when you're high or your teeth might melt?

[DCrom]

perhaps there could be consequences for pushing a flute too high.

Just say "No" to the third octave?

Don't play when you're high or your teeth might melt?

Not that *my* playing is likely to imperil my teeth (I rarely go higher than E or at most F# in the third octave, and prefer tunes that stay safely in the first two octaves).

But does correlation (X lost his front teeth, which affected his flute playing) imply causation (X lost his front teeth *because* of flute playing)? It seems that most of the examples cited grew up in a time when dental care standards were rather lower than today. And when "pull the bad tooth" was often the first choice of treatment. How many of their contemporaries (who played box, fiddle, whistle, or pipes) *also* lost their teeth as they aged?

For reference, my grandfather grew up in a rural area (few dentists), and had all his teeth pulled before he reached 30 (his family ran to bad teeth). My father had similarly bad teeth, and had several root canals, but still has his own teeth despite being past 70. And *knock on wood* I'm nearly 50 and (so far) have both kept my own teeth and avoided root canals.

Now I can see something like saxophone or clarinet really affecting your bite. Or any of the brasses. I may be giving away how weak my embouchure is . . . but I just can't see Irish flute being the major culprit in tooth loss.

[Cayden]

but I just can't see Irish flute being the major culprit in tooth loss.

Thankfully nobody was suggesting anything of the sort, except for Cork and he only re the Boehm flute in the top octaves so maybe we should that line of discussion rest.

[Cork]

An ITM player likely won't have any tooth troubles if they play a keyless, diatonic flute, such as a keyless D flute, for instance, and that's because the music tends to stay within the first couple of octaves or so.

However, switching over to a chromatic flute just might provoke some troubles. For instance, with a chromatic flute a player could all too easily be tempted to play all around the circle of fifths, naturally enough, but which might then lead the player to "push" the upper limits of the flute, to extend the working range of their flute.

That's a really, really easy temptation.

Beware!

[Denny]

when the fifths start circling it is time to stop drinking

[Cork]

when the fifths start circling it is time to stop drinking

A fifth? I remember them, but it's been more than thirty years since I've seen one.

An ex-Navy friend of mine once described a fifth as a "bed-spinning room-rocker."

:-D

[Akiba]

I add two more fluteplayers (and pipers and whistleplayers) of the older generation. Both 'locals', in the sense they are West Clare players, Clare always being seen as one of the gentler styles by the academics.

Both recordings are from the 1960s, first from Caherrush, Miltown Malbay the late JC Talty who is generally regarded as one of the more refined fluteplayers of his time and place (and rightly so). He played an ivory headed German flute. Second is Michael Falsey, from Seafield, Quilty. No longer active as a fluteplayer but well into his eighties, he is still going well on both pipes and whistle. Michael learned from his father and could be said to carry a style that goes back well into 19th century. Michael and his father, with Joe Cunneen can be seen in the picture that is on the cover of Hammie Hamilton's flute-tutor.

In spite of the sound quality (decaying tapes), it's easy to hear the label 'gentle' (as I understand it's meaning applied for the use of this thread) will not come to mind.

Thanks, Peter for these tracks...they're great. Very modern sounding. In fact, they sound like the same settings I believe how Matt Molloy and Bothy Band played those tunes. I think Molloy, playing I believe a Rudall at the time, sounds so similar but plays with a bit more drive and more on the edge of the tone, probably pushing the volume. Yes, these tracks are somewhat "gentler" than Molloy later plays them, but only by degrees. Certainly not in the Grey Larsen realm.

I'm no scholar, but it seems that Grey does his own thing, strives for originality, doesn't want to sound like "so-and-so", and perhaps he found a niche by playing more slowly, more "gently", yet being firmly anchored in the tradition. Maybe his classical training affected his ear and approach to the flute which has probably happened in my case as well (not that I'm 1/10th the player). Maybe it's just personality and how one is compelled to play the flute. In my case, I picked up the flute and got a big, round sound pretty much from the get go. It's what I like and what thrills me about playing flute. Going towards an edgier, reedier, sound is not what I'm compelled or drawn to do. Perhaps Grey is also just following his internal sensibilities.

Jason