Is your child a Goth?

Tyler · Post by **Tyler** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:41 am

Anglorfin wrote:Boy I hope I don't get flamed for this ...

FLame on!

J/K

mamakash · Post by **mamakash** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:04 pm

I was never in danger of being Goth, but I did try hippy-style in my senior year at high school. Lasted a few days and I didn't like standing out(I was just shy, I probably never did stand out). I did wear my crystals and ankles for many years after that, had a fondness for patchouli oil, then Egyptian Musk. I'm very fond of those old memories of listening to 10000 Maniacs or Indigo Girls, burning incense and stinking of some exotic fragrance.
It doesn't work at 35 like it did at 17. I have the albums and the oils and could find some incense and my die tie shirt(if i still have it) but I'm still a thirty something non-hippy. Pretending to be something I'm not was much easier in my late teens.

Is it more dangerous to imitate Goth or Hippy?

cowtime · Post by **cowtime** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:22 pm

The only way I can recall "imitating Hippy" would be considered "dangerous" would be if you could go back in time to the late 60's in certain specific locales of the country...think redneck south, 1968 Demo convention, Ohio State Univ., Most "freaks" were an easy going bunch, if I do say so myself, having survived the "Age of Aquarius"

KateG · Post by **KateG** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:04 am

Yes, it continues to amuse me that the portion of the population most prone to ridiculing or assaulting hippies for their long hair in the 60s/70's is the same population (and/or their offspring) most likely to sport it now.

Tyler · Post by **Tyler** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:11 am

KateG wrote:Yes, it continues to amuse me that the portion of the population most prone to ridiculing or assaulting hippies for their long hair in the 60s/70's is the same population (and/or their offspring) most likely to sport it now.

hippiecrits!

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:12 am

Anglorfin wrote:....Boy I hope I don't get flamed for this but I believe that worshipping Satan is just as misguided as worshipping ANY other deity. So I can't help but laugh when people point out how "wrong" someone is. As long as a religion helps people calm their souls then it is doing its job. If you can do that through other means then that is just as good too.

I don't worship any deities myself and I don't think of people who do as being misguided. But aren't the people who actually worship Satan (I don't mean the goth kids) worshipping evil? I don't think most religions are based on the adoration of evil. I think worshipping evil is not a very good thing---would not the worshippers be expected to perform evil acts as well? I think people should be free to worship Satan as long as people aren't being hurt, but I must say I do consider them to be misguided if they are professing to love evil. Maybe Satan stands for something different to Satan-worshippers than the idea does to me.

I'm not talking about the goth kids---just responding to a point made on the side.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:25 am

Cynth, I'm no expert on Satanism, but from the little bit I've read, I think they view God as evil and Satan as a sort of underdog hero.

Thus, Satanism, to my understanding, doesn't worship evil, because it views God as being the true evil and his followers as being misguided.

Disclaimer: I'm not a Satanist and have never been one. I've never actually known any, and the little I know about them comes from having read bits and pieces about them online while researching other religions.

--James

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:25 am

Evil is a concept. The perception of evil is relative. The most identifiable thing I have seen amongst those who profess to worship Satan is a desire for personal power and protection. The method may be different, but I find very little different in this from those who claim to worship some other deity.

djm

fearfaoin · Post by **fearfaoin** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:38 am

Cynth wrote:But aren't the people who actually worship Satan (I don't mean the goth kids) worshipping evil?

Well, you're placing a filter of dualism over what might not be
a dualistic view for Satanists. For Satanists who are actually
worshiping to be anti-Christian, then yes, Satan would be
considered the opposite of God, and therefore they would ac-
knowledge that they are worshiping the personification of evil.
Most of the Satanists of this type I've met are largely trying to
annoy their parents, or are overreacting to perceived problems
with Christians. Many are not very serious about it, and sort of
"grow out of it" after a while. They often either get into more
serious Satanism (see next paragraph), or become devout Pagans
or Athiests.

But most flavors of serious Satanism do not include JudeoChristian
norms in their worldview. They consider Lucifer as either a being
similar to a Pagan god rather than as an adversary to Jehovah, or as a
metaphor for self-preservation and individualism. The second view
reminds me of Ayn Rand's Objectivism. Most of these Satanists
do not believe in Yahweh at all, and it is really not correct to say
that they worship evil, because they don't associate "good" and
"evil" to any deities. To them, good and evil are human characterists,
and people are responsible for their own actions.

Father Emmet · Post by **Father Emmet** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:43 am

peeplj wrote:I think they view God as evil and Satan as a sort of underdog hero.

Thus, Satanism, to my understanding, doesn't worship evil, because it views God as being the true evil and his followers as being misguided.

Yes, exactly. According to their church leader (Anton LeVay?) God is a capricious bully, and Lucifer a freedom loving individualist. "I will not serve" ect., ect.

fearfaoin · Post by **fearfaoin** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:57 am

Father Emmet wrote:Yes, exactly. According to their church leader (Anton LeVay?) God is a capricious bully, and Lucifer a freedom loving individualist. "I will not serve" ect., ect.

Please note, though, that LeVay's Church of Satan is not the only
version of Satanism (nor is his daughter Karla's First Satanic
Church). Wikipedia has interesting articles on Theistic Satanism,
Luciferianism (which doesn't consider Lucifer to be the same
person as Satan), as well as LeVay's Satanism.

There was a version of Gnosticism, within first couple hundred
years A.D., which venerated the snake in the Garden of Eden
because he helped humans become independant thinkers. I've
always thought this could be a precursor to many types of modern
Satanism.

mamakash · Post by **mamakash** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:36 am

Father Lucifer
you never looked so sane
you always did prefer the drizzle to the rain
tell me that you're still in love with that Milkmaid
how's the Lizzies
how's your Jesus Christ been hanging

Tori Amos - Father Lucifer

"So, um, when I came home I guess it was at Thanksgiving because I remember a bird and forks going down at the table, when my father said to me, 'Tori Ellen, I can't believe you wrote this song about me.' And I said, 'I write everything about you, what are you surprised about?' And he said, 'No, but I'm really hurt about this one.' And I said, 'Well which one is it?" And he said, "well, you called me Satan." And I said, "No! I was taking drugs with a South American shaman and I really did visit the Devil and I had a journey." And he went, 'Oh, Praise Jesus!'"
[VH1 Storytellers]

Tori Amos - Satanist or red head hippy? You decide.

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:32 am

I find it hard to believe no-one has asked, "Is your Goth a child." I certainly don't think Fritigern was a teenager.

djm

dwinterfield · Post by **dwinterfield** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:41 am

So if I understand this thread correctly, most people (mystelf included) on C&F qualified as Goths at some point in their lives and most still do. Does Dale know this? Maybe he can rework the T-shirt line to something with more Goth/whistle appeal.

And thank you Cowtime. In the 1960s hippies were are a creation of Life magazine (which I undertand will pass away in a few days). Freaks went to Woodstock and were empowered.

My niece once interviewed me for a high school paper as an ex-hippie. The freak identity is always lurking in the back of my mind no matter how much I may appear to many as a responsible, middle-agged responsible adult.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:38 am

I can see I am not up on the worship of Satan and Lucifer---I had no idea there were so many different approaches. I only read quite quickly through the links fearfaoin provided and I can see that these religions have histories and meanings I know nothing about. I do continue to have a very negative reaction to the use of the word "Satan" with "worship"---because of the particular culture I was raised in I suppose---but I will at least know that it does not mean the same thing to all people and so I won't make a judgment unless I have some evidence that evil deeds are being encouraged which sounds as though it would be extremely unlikely. I think I did read in the links something about "devil worship" being confused with "Satan worship" so perhaps that is where I am confused---but then I think it said something about all devils not being bad, so there you go again. Anyway, it is interesting in a way. It all seems a lot of trouble to go to, but then I am not one who inclines toward religion or toward gathering with others who share a particular philosophy.

djm, I do think that there are deeds that are genuinely wrong. Don't you? I realize I think that way because I have been taught that way, but I can't just open my mind entirely to accepting anything as being okay because someone was taught it was okay or wasn't taught it wasn't okay. I agree that we are all hypocrites at times, but then I think many do try to follow the tenets of their faith. That Anton LeVay says you should treat other people the way they treat you. Many of us---of all sorts of religions----were taught that we should treat others the way we wish to be treated. I think the Anton LeVay way is horrible. People may not always follow the Golden Rule, but many do try. I think there is a difference there.