why no airs????

[colomon]

I should perhaps point out, given the tone of the discussion, that I'm not trying to defend my own poor playing of slow airs -- because I don't play them. I learned a few slow tunes when I started out, but none were proper sean-nos airs, and I haven't tried to learn any since then.

In fact, seems like every time I do get the urge to learn a few, probably off of Seamus Tansey or Peter Horan recordings, a discussion like this pops up to remind me there's no way I could possibly learn to play them "correctly". So I'll stick with the reels, jigs, singles and doubles that I love and which are clearly central to the traditions I care about. Y'all can have the slow airs.

But I'm still curious what the "rules" are.

[Cayden]

I don't know about the tone of the discussion but I think the old problem on these forums is that some people fail to see the point is there are many many ways of playing an air well. It's the fact there is also a number of ways in which you can play them completely wrong that appears to be off-putting, triggering the old 'I am not Irish, a lot of us outside Ireland play this music now so we can ignore the basic aesthetic of this music' which as the discussion progresses becomes increasingly vocal and more defensive.

[Tony McGinley]

for those, like me, who didn't know:

http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/inart378.htm

..........In the belief that the term 'sean-nos' referred to a readily definable style, it has been reduced convincingly by academics and afficionados to a series of characteristics which have been well documented, most notably by Sean O Riada in 1962 and Seoirse Bodley in 1972. The following is an amalgam:

1. A bare voice (not 'sweet', with a certain 'natural fierceness').

2. No vibrato.

3. No dynamic. (loud/soft)

4. Emotion is expressed through the use of vocal ornamentation, which varies from singer to singer.

5. Free, non-metronomic rhythm used by the singer.

6. The meaning of the words dictates singing from the heart, with 'soul'. (Without dynamic - see above).

7. Often there is an emphasis on the consonants l, m, n, r to facilitate the free rhythmic pulse and to create a drone effect.

8. Occasional nasalisation.

9. Music takes precedent over the lyric.

10. Often extra meaningless syllables are introduced, e.g., "Thug (a) me".

11. The use of the glottal stop/dramatic pause.

12. It's unaccompanied.

13. The melody varies from one verse to the next, and from one performance to the next. This is often referred to as the 'variation principle'.

14. And last but not least, the singing is in the Irish language.

Bee da jaysus and bee gorra - it sounds bloody awful.
Not the type of music anyone would aspire to is it?
The above list is an exhaustive one of given styles and
techniques, not all of which would ever be used by any
one performer.

Some Sean Nós singing actually sounds just as bad as the
discription, and some of it is etherially beautiful.

Some of the best Sean Nós I have listened to was in English.
The singer was classically trained and used a broad range
of vocal techniques. The effect was electric.

The defining factor, as with all music, are not the rules
or norms, but rather the unique ability of the performer,
within an idiom, to express a set of feelings and emotions
in the language of the given style of music.

Bog basic to Slow Airs is the expression of the emotions
through the medium of the music, using a given set of
styles. Sean Nós is the root of Irish slow airs.

[colomon]

I don't know about the tone of the discussion but I think the old problem on these forums is that some people fail to see the point is there are many many ways of playing an air well. It's the fact there is also a number of ways in which you can play them completely wrong that appears to be off-putting...

Could a major part of the problem be that people are quick to disparage those who play them incorrectly, but no one ever gives a decent definition of what is actually correct?

Okay, so there are many ways of playing a air well. Great, we've established this isn't a highland piping competition.

But that doesn't get me any closer to understanding which variables are acceptable and which are taboo. Must you play as a singer has sung it, or is it enough to play it as a singer might sing it? Could you mimic the singing of sean-nos singer who has translated the song into a language you understand? Could you just cut out the middle man and mimic the playing of an acknowledged great musican who does speak Irish? Etc.

[SteveShaw]

Fair enough, I never brought up 'rules' although I do think there's a basic aesthetic to which all air playing is answerable. There's loads of room for interpretation but it was you who brought the 'I'll do as I please and feck the begrudger' thing. To which I responded.

Hey, Peter, I've never denied that there's a basic aesthetic that must be adhered to. I'm well known in my session setup for constantly whingeing about corner-cutters, and I struggle a lot in my own playing to try to achieve a plausible way of playing the music in the spirit of the tradition on a non-traditional and limited instrument. I didn't say in general terms to feck the begrudger, etc. - that was a specific response to Amar who was describing the fulfilment he personally derives from playing airs. I think that if you and I were arguing this through over a pint or five we'd be agreeing!

Maybe one fine day...

Cheers

Steve

[SteveShaw]

But I'm still curious what the "rules" are.

I don't think we should ever listen to anyone who says there are rules. There's the spirit of the thing that we should all aspire to be equal to (and we'll probably nearly all "fail" - so what!). Beethoven didn't write his violin concerto so that only Yehudi Menuhin could play it!

Steve

[Tony McGinley]

I am utterly curious why there are so little (better said, NONE) airs to find on recordings or even in groups or discussions.......
it seems to be all about jigs, reels, slipjigs, you name it, but no airs?
while they can be so beautiful or does no body feel challenged enough to dare to play them?

if somebody knows of cd's with nice airs on flute or combo flute/ fiddle etc please let me know.

but I am most interested to hear your opinions on this why no airs.....
like airs myself, and yes they are maybe hard to get a grip on when you have not been into all this for long enough yet but also I think a good way to express yourself through your instrument.
I find the jigs and reels may be flexible to get your own style into it, but when it is about feelings, there is nothing like an air........

agree? disagree?
cheers
berti (playing flute over 1 year and whistle over 2 years)

Bertie look at what you started!!!
Slow airs = Mine fields

Please dont be put off by the somewhat heated
and closed discussion that has evolved.

I completly agree - feeling is where the slow airs are about.
Feeling are also what frightens many people away from playing
these haunting and beautiful airs.

As an Irishman living in the West of Ireland and having
the culture and music since childhood around me, I came
to dilike Irish music because of the way it was "owned"
by the "protectors" Set you own rules and enjoy the music.
I know a very excellent Uilleann piper who is Australian,
he even learned the Irish language and gets very good
feeling into his playing.

I urge you to enjoy the Irish slow airs and to listen to
and play them. As you play and listen, you will develop
a feeling for the tunes. But even on a superficial
level, you can enjoy these tunes, which for the most
part are very melodic and lyrical.

The Sally Gardens and "Danny Boy" the "Derry Air"
are very good tunes to start with.

[djm]

I am not an expert, I don't speak Irish, I don't much care for sean nós singing (as much as I have tried), and I don't play slow airs much if at all, but because they are such a big part of the piping repertoire I keep giving them a stab. From that basis I will try to give some of my small understandings to see if that helps (or generate more arguments ).

Regardless of which set of lyrics that are applied to a tune, there are still distinct phrases in a tune. Butchering a tune consists primarily of ignoring these phrases. The phrases are not always obvious, are sometimes separate, and sometimes run together. This seems to apply especially if you are learning from someone singing in the Connemara style, (the CCÉ de facto standard) which goes to great lengths to bend, fold, and spindle the tune in massive waves of hystrionics. Try to find a simple, basic sung version of the tune. Failing that, try to find the dots and compare them against the sung version to see where the phrases are.

Various singers and players will hold a long note occasionally. But which note? It has little to do with the phrase, and there is no meter to go by. The list of rules that Amar quoted gives some clues, but then you are back to having to know the lyrics to apply this correctly. Once again you can try copying someone else's played version of the tune to know where it may be appropriate to lengthen/hold a note.

And where to apply ornaments? While the rules Amar quoted say not to ornament slow airs, that applies to the sung version, whereas any bit of listening you do to intrumentalists shows this is not necessarily the case when the tune is played. Again, the only clues I have found are from listening to revered players and see where they added ornaments. You don't have to necessarily copy their ornaments, but at least you can get a clue as to where to add ornaments.

Hope that helps give you a start.

djm

[SteveShaw]

I think this thread has been animated and fervent, but that's because we're all committed to this music and want to do our best with it even though we're coming at it from different viewpoints (and countries!). But we can, and have, discussed it constructively yet vigorously without falling out. I'm supposed to be writing an article on slow air playing for a harmonica publication at the moment, and I've picked up a whole load of useful angles from the thread.

Steve

[Wanderer]

I really don't know what all the fuss is about. Personally, i find putting this huge list of requirements in front of slow airs before you even attempt them some what ridiculous and nonsensical. I'm almost certain that this is not the approach that Crusty O'Farti took to learning his music in the kitchen back in the day when Ireland was whole, little leprechauns danced in the glens, and potatoes tasted like prime rib.

I personally adopt a practical approach to learning airs (as well as any other tune):

1) I start out learning the tune.
2) It sounds like crap.
3) I listen and practice and listen and practice.
4) It improves
5) I listen and practice and listen and practice.
6) One day it may become good.

[Cynth]

Here are a couple of articles that might be of interest to some. The first is about sean-nos singing in Donegal. The second is about playing "slow airs" songs from the old time singing repertoire.

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/sean-nos.htm
http://www.irishflutes.net/mef/interpre.htm

I also found a couple of chapters in Music in Ireland by Dorothea E. Hast and Stanley Scott in which they concentrate on some present day singers of different kinds of Irish songs in Irish and English to be very interesting. The first chapter about singing might offer ideas to those who would like to play airs or melodies from slower songs (not sure what to call them) but don't feel competent to attempt "slow airs".

I guess the fuss is about the fact that some feel that for the special category of tune know as the "slow air" which is taken from the sean-nos repertoire, one needs to know what the song the air is taken from is about in order to play it. And not just the song in general, but what each phrase is about. A phrase might sound sad when I apply my musical idiom to it but not actually be sad. And then there are some conventions, which differ from region to region, which might be generally followed by the singers---they don't just start yodeling in the middle of the song, etc.---that some people feel should be acknowledged instrumentally. You could listen and copy to the best of your ability, but copying without really understanding isn't everyone's cup of tea I guess. Another part of the fuss is that some people feel the term "slow air" refers to a specific type of tune taken from a song in the sean-nos repertoire that should be played with respect to the singing tradition. Others feel it refers to anything played slowly.

[SteveShaw]

I really don't know what all the fuss is about. Personally, i find putting this huge list of requirements in front of slow airs before you even attempt them some want ridiculous and nonsensical. I'm almost certain that this is not the approach that Crusty O'Farti took to learning his music in the kitchen back in the day when Ireland was whole, little leprechauns danced in the glens, and potatoes tasted like prime rib.

I personally adopt a practical approach to learning airs (as well as any other tune):

1) I start out learning the tune.
2) It sounds like crap.
3) I listen and practice and listen and practice.
4) It improves
5) I listen and practice and listen and practice.
6) One day it may become good.

Best bloody post in the thread, mate. We just have to be can-do about this. Did everyone notice how many times he used the word "listen?"

But I want my spuds to taste of spud. A tall order in today's chemically-fertilised world.

Steve

[SteveShaw]

Bertie look at what you started!!!
Slow airs = Mine fields

Please dont be put off by the somewhat heated
and closed discussion that has evolved.

I think that everyone posting on this important topic has the same ultimate aim - to understand and to be able to play slow airs better. It's a healthy sign that we care enough to get our passions aroused enough to discuss it in a direct way.

I completly agree - feeling is where the slow airs are about.
Feeling are also what frightens many people away from playing
these haunting and beautiful airs.

I think that's right. There is an aura of mystery surrounding slow airs, rightly so. They are very difficult to bring off well, even more so if you can't tick all the right boxes in your own musical background. But that shouldn't mean that they become a rare bird in concerts, sessions and recordings because we get scared of playing them. At our last session my friend and I bungled our way on harmonica and fiddle through a Scottish air, Calum Sgaire, that we'd only just learned (yeah, I know, not Irish and not solo!), and the whole pub fell silent and we got tumultuous applause (we didn't even know they were listening!). I don't think most people want an incessant diet of reels except for a few session reel-sharks. That encouraged us (a) to play the thing better next time out , (b) to get a few more airs up and running.

As an Irishman living in the West of Ireland and having
the culture and music since childhood around me, I came
to dilike Irish music because of the way it was "owned"
by the "protectors" Set you own rules and enjoy the music.
I know a very excellent Uilleann piper who is Australian,
he even learned the Irish language and gets very good
feeling into his playing.

The music is hard enough to play without you always having the feeling that you could be frowned upon by purists who (as Colomon indicated) can be heavy on criticism, veiled or open, and light on good advice. As an outsider you can get the feeling that your presence is just not welcomed by a few of the...ahem..."elders" of the tradition and that your involvement in ITM is held to be inferior. I certainly got that feeling on IRTRAD when I (impetuously ) jumped to the defence of the Rough Guide to Irish Music, which was written by an Englishman! Maybe shutting up and knowing your place would make you an easier person to welcome...

I urge you to enjoy the Irish slow airs and to listen to
and play them. As you play and listen, you will develop
a feeling for the tunes. But even on a superficial
level, you can enjoy these tunes, which for the most
part are very melodic and lyrical.

The Sally Gardens and "Danny Boy" the "Derry Air"
are very good tunes to start with.

Right. Who cares if your first attempts sound superficial? There are many layers to a great piece of music, and such pieces should not be the exclusive preserve of the virtuoso player or virtuoso listener (to coin a phrase ). We've all got to start somewhere.

Steve

[amar]

Very true, when you play slow airs, you are opening up to the people, you are showing your emotions, you are intimate and thus, are vulnerable. Not something many are comfortable doing.

[Tony McGinley]

Here are a couple of articles that might be of interest to some. The first is about sean-nos singing in Donegal. The second is about playing "slow airs" songs from the old time singing repetoire.

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/sean-nos.htm
http://www.irishflutes.net/mef/interpre.htm

I also found a couple of chapters in Music in Ireland by Dorothea E. Hast and Stanley Scott in which they concentrate on some present day singers of different kinds of Irish songs in Irish and English to be very interesting. The first chapter about singing might offer ideas to those who would like to play airs or melodies from slower songs (not sure what to call them) but don't feel competent to attempt "slow airs".

I guess the fuss is about the fact that some feel that for the special category of tune know as the "slow air" which is taken from the sean-nos repetoire, one needs to know what the song the air is taken from is about in order to play it. And not just the song in general, but what each phrase is about. A phrase might sound sad when I apply my musical idiom to it but not actually be sad. And then there are some conventions, which differ from region to region, which might be generally followed by the singers---they don't just start yodeling in the middle of the song, etc.---that some people feel should be acknowledged instrumentally. You could listen and copy to the best of your ability, but copying without really understanding isn't everyone's cup of tea I guess. Another part of the fuss is that some people feel the term "slow air" refers to a specific type of tune taken from a song in the sean-nos repetoire that should be played with respect to the singing tradition. Others feel it refers to anything played slowly.

Thank you Cynth for your comments and the links.
I found the first one on Sean Nós very informative.

I agree with the idea that a narrow concept of what
a "slow air" represents seems to have evolved. My
understanding is that all slower tempo, sean nós, songs,
ballads, O'Carolan pieces, and other instrumental pieces
are all considered "slow airs" simply a label that has
developed over time to describe Irish Slow Instrumental
Pieces.

I have really enjoyed this discussion with a lot of serious,
and some fun input. The heated and closed discussions I
refered to are not directed at this BB but far more generally
to discussions which have evolved over years on the subject
of Slow Airs and ITM in general.

I believe that feeling is also central to much of Irish dance
music. ( and I bet this will draw a few comments) Listen to
Martin Hayes and Denis Cahill play. Especially listen to their
rendition of the hornpipe "Poll H'apenny". The whole Irish
Celtic thing in music, poetry, and literature is all about
emotions and feelings. Even in the dance music there is
a wealth of emotion expressed. However not too many
players are able to express it fully.