Original Flute Owners - data needed!

[Terry McGee]

Thanks Markp and Ronnie. I've added your data in - it improves our understanding of how Rudalls scaled their large-holed flutes. Assuming our estimated dates are about right, the C#-D# length of large holed flutes remained at around 255 to about 1872, before they started to catch up with the new Perfected era flutes (bright pink trace).



Thanks also to all the other flute owners who have provided data. I can't use that in the current study, as these makers didn't use serial numbers, so we can't estimate their dates so easily. But I will come back to it, and to the emb-c# data, to see what we can learn from it.

Terry

[Terry McGee]

Ah, and I've just realised I have some data about Hawkes flutes I can fold into the mix. Although Hawkes didn't seem to use serial numbers reliably, their several changes in address and name provides us with some approximate dating information. In aqua in the graph above, it seems to agree with where Rudall's large holed flutes ended up.

Terry

[Terry McGee]

And thanks to Ronan from Brittany, a useful addition to our Prattens data; see the purple trace on the graph above. Interesting how the stayers - Boosey Prattens, Hawkes and Rudall carte have all ended up around 247-248mm.

Interesting too how Boosey and RC came to that from different directions. I'm inclined to believe that this supports my theory that Rudalls had continued to concentrate on the domestic market, while Hawkes and Boosey (they weren't yet Boosey & Hawkes!) focussed on the professional market. But interested in hearing any other theories!

Terry

[Latticino]

For what it is worth, here is some data from a couple of the antiques I have in hand at the moment:

Wood & Ivy 8-key blackwood: 265 mm
Wm Hall & Sons 6-key grenadilla: 262 mm
Metzler 6-key cocus: 254 mm
George French 8-key cocus?: 257 mm

[ImNotIrish]

Terry,

Hudson Pratten, #221
C# to Eb = 255 mm
Does this sound about right? I don't trust that my measurement was exact (eyeballed to center of holes).
Arbo

[Terry McGee]

Thanks Arbo - it 's certainly a likely measurement. So far we have had two lengths for Hudson flutes reported. You'll see on the graph above I've called them Hudson Long and Short. They are 244mm (short) and 255 (long).

As a Long, it conforms with the Improved era flutes like Nicholsons and Rudalls, while the Shorts have the shortest scale of all the flutes we've found so far, slightly shorter than the Prattens.

Does anyone near you have an original Prattens? It would be very instructive to play them, side by side, into a tuner, to see how you found the difference.

But even without one to compare, how would you characterise the intonation? If you get the top of tube notes (G, A, B) in tune at 440, where is the low D? I'd imagine you have to work a bit to get it up to 440. Where would it be if you blew "naively"?

And I'd like to hear from original Prattens owners (or any other flutes with a scale length from 248 or less), if you do the same test, is low D in ideal tune, or do you feel it tends sharp?

Terry

[ImNotIrish]

Thanks Arbo - it 's certainly a likely measurement. So far we have had two lengths for Hudson flutes reported. You'll see on the graph above I've called them Hudson Long and Short. They are 244mm (short) and 255 (long).

As a Long, it conforms with the Improved era flutes like Nicholsons and Rudalls, while the Shorts have the shortest scale of all the flutes we've found so far, slightly shorter than the Prattens.

Does anyone near you have an original Prattens? It would be very instructive to play them, side by side, into a tuner, to see how you found the difference.

But even without one to compare, how would you characterise the intonation? If you get the top of tube notes (G, A, B) in tune at 440, where is the low D? I'd imagine you have to work a bit to get it up to 440. Where would it be if you blew "naively"?

And I'd like to hear from original Prattens owners (or any other flutes with a scale length from 248 or less), if you do the same test, is low D in ideal tune, or do you feel it tends sharp?

Terry

Terry, When I get some time later in the week I can give the tuning a try. I can tell you straight away, that when the flute is warmed up, I have the hj out about the width of a piece of electrical tape to play it at A=440. I am robably a strong blower however.
Arbo

[Terry McGee]

OK, major upgrade to the Flute Scaling page. I've backtracked into the 18th century to see how far back the downward drift in tuning and scaling goes. Very interesting.

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Changes-in- ... caling.htm

Terry

[Terry McGee]

Further up, Jem and I were scratching our heads in public, wondering about what the measurements C#-E and C#-Eb might tell us about a flute. I've been scratching my head some more. Test this on your flute:

Measure C#-Eb and divide by C#-E.

A flute where the result is around 1.25 will not have a flat foot. My Pratten's Perfected original is such a flute. My Nicholson's (Un)Improved exhibits a dramatic flat foot and yields a factor of 1.32. Ditto my Nicholson's Improved, 1.3.

Is that a useful way to discern likelihood of flat foot from measurements alone?

Terry

[benhall.1]

You know, my problem with all of this is ...

... every time I get a flute out to measure it, I end up just playing it.

[jemtheflute]

You know, my problem with all of this is ...

... every time I get a flute out to measure it, I end up just playing it.

Ah. You have no poetry.

[benhall.1]

You know, my problem with all of this is ...

... every time I get a flute out to measure it, I end up just playing it.

Ah. You have no poetry.

A*se!

[I mean that lovingly, folks. ]

[jemtheflute]

You know, my problem with all of this is ...

... every time I get a flute out to measure it, I end up just playing it.

Ah. You have no poetry.

A*se!

[I mean that lovingly, folks. ]

No poetry, but he's cheap.... going for a thong......

[paddler]

I added a column to my previous data to include the C#-E measurement for each flute in addition to the C#-Eb and the ratio between them. The results are quite interesting.

The flute that I consider to be the best in tune has the lowest ratio, as Terry's theory would suggest. Plus, they do all have some degree of flat footedness at A=440 hz. However, the ratios are very similar for all of the flutes, even though the degree of flat footedness varies among them.

I added a flute labelled AnonHall because its playing characteristics convince me that its target tuning was around A=420hz. That is where it exhibits the best internal tuning. This is interesting because visually it looks (and measures) very similar to the other American flutes on the list, but their target pitch is considerably higher when determined by the same method (adjusting tuner calibration and tuning slide until the flute is best in tune with itself across two octaves). This is one piece of evidence that convinces me that bore and embouchure shape and relative tone hole sizes have a significant impact that is not captured by the measurements we have been using.

Code: Select all

SL = Sounding Length (center embouchure to end)
Emb-C# = Center embouchure to center C# hole
C#-Eb = center C# hole to center Eb hole

Flute                   SL      Emb-C#          C#-Eb           C#-E    Ratio
Fentum                  586     217             256             199     1.29
Clementi                580     223             257             196     1.31
Bilton                  589     212             260             201     1.29
Imlay                   583     215             259             199     1.30
FirthSonCo              583     219             259             203     1.28
WmHall                  527     213             261             201     1.30
FirthPondCo             528     213             261             200     1.30
FHP                     528     213             262             202     1.30
AnonHall                536     220             262             201     1.30


Flute Details

Fentum: Francis Fentum, 29 Queens Row (med hole 8 key)
Clementi:       Clementi & Co, London, Patent (med hole 8 key)
Bilton:         Bilton, 9 Westminster Br. Rd. (small hole 8 key)
Imlay:          Imlay Fecit, London (large hole 8 key)
FirthSonCo:     Firth Son & Co (med hole 8 key)
Wm Hall:        William Hall & Son, N.-York (small hole 6 key)
FirthPondCo:    Firth Pond & Co, N-York (small hole 4 key)
FHP:            Firth Hall & Pond, N-York (small hole 4 key)
AnonHall:       Anonymous William Hall look-alike (med hole 6 key)

[Jon C.]

I agree, a narrow bore flute with small tone holes will have a longer cone, and a foot that tends to be in better tuning.