brass vs. sterling silver

MandoPaul · Post by **MandoPaul** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:21 pm

On 2002-10-21 13:28, ErikT wrote:
Here's another good one, though not conclusive from a material standpoint, it does make the point the the overriding properties are temperature and reflectivity of the surface (ie. porousity): http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/288846.html
Interesting. Porousity would be a factor in comparing wood vs metal, since level of smoothness with metal is much easier to achieve than wood inside a small tube.

This ones just for fun... we've seen it before: The Cyberwhistle. http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/532309.html
This is a neat little toy.

Anyway, no real conclusion, but this at least moves us away from the realm of "I think".

A very welcome contribution to the thread. Lots of reading to do.

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:25 pm

On 2002-10-21 11:56, MandoPaul wrote:
they seemed pretty similar in the way they played.

I take it you've had a different experience?

Yes. I have played 25 or so Copelands and they have varied TREMENDOUSLY, both in dimensions and in tone. For a long time, there was not a standardized location of the tuning slide, and this was different on many whistles of the same key. Now, it's standardized, but as voicing is still done by hand, there is still enormous tonal variation. I would agree that they all sound more flutey than pure, and a given Copeland will sound more like another Copeland than like an O'Riordan, but some are loud, some are not as loud, some are cloudy, some are piercing, some resonant, some not so resonant, etc. They are made to a high standard, but "consistent" is not a word I would use to describe them. Right now I have about a dozen Copelands (have had more), and none of them play the same.

Jessie

MandoPaul · Post by **MandoPaul** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:34 pm

On 2002-10-21 14:25, JessieK wrote:
Yes. I have played 25 or so Copelands and they have varied TREMENDOUSLY, both in dimensions and in tone. For a long time, there was not a standardized location of the tuning slide, and this was different on many whistles of the same key. Now, it's standardized, but as voicing is still done by hand, there is still enormous tonal variation.

Good to know. I didn't ask every owner but I think all but one that I've played were made within the last year or two. My original brass D is different but it's probably 12+ years old so I expected it to be different.
Also, I wasn't able to do head to head comparisons of all of them and aural memory is inconsistent if you can't have a reference sound for all tests.

That said, I agree that they do have a distinctive "Copeland" sound.

Who would you say does the most consistent work?

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:08 pm

I think John Sindt has the most consistent work. His whistles, in my experience, in a given key, are always the same.

Jessie

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 2:03 pm

On 2002-10-21 14:05, Pan wrote:
Well... a fun test could be to use a mouthpiece and substitute the bodys.

Hi Peter,

I've actually tried this. I've started with a silver head and traded out silver, brass and aluminum for the bodies. And I just didn't notice a tone difference.(Insert here the fact that according to my wife, my hearing isn't very good). Frankly, I was particularly expecting to hear a difference in the aluminum, but didn't.

E

MandoPaul · Post by **MandoPaul** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 2:08 pm

On 2002-10-21 16:03, ErikT wrote:
I've actually tried this. I've started with a silver head and traded out silver, brass and aluminum for the bodies. And I just didn't notice a tone difference.(Insert here the fact that according to my wife, my hearing isn't very good). Frankly, I was particularly expecting to hear a difference in the aluminum, but didn't.

Well, the corollary to this is to swap different metal heads on the same body. It seems to be a bit of a religious war on the flute side but there do seem to be a fair number of folks who think the headjoint of the flute has a lot more to do with sound than the body. If that is true, swapping out whistle fipples/heads should be more apparently different than swapping bodies.

Pan · Post by **Pan** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:44 am

Erik,

good hearing is sometimes a blessing and sometimes not

According to a doctor when I did a "hearing test" I could hear about -10dB lower sounds than the average Swede.

This makes it possible for me to sing along to a tune in crowded/noisy places when my friends doesn´t even hear that a piece of music is playing. I also have no problem with hearing the difference in audiocables.

BUT... living in a apartment with neighbours... you get the picture

/Peter

Caoimhin · Post by **Caoimhin** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:44 am

With wood, the older it is, the more it can vibrate due to the 'excitations' it has received over time.

With metals such as brass and silver, it could be something similar, which I don't know. Weird isn't it. Metal looks 'stiff', hard. But it does change to, doesn't it?

It could be on the atomic level.

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:49 am

Metal does change. Over time and handling, it gets work hardened, which seems to indicate that it gets more dense.

Jim W · Post by **Jim W** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:18 pm

FWIW, flautists (who play the metal variation) will generally pay a premium for sterling silver versus other metals. Many knowledgeable saxophone players claim to hear a difference between different metals. My guess is, not *much* difference, but there is likely to be *some*.

Pan · Post by **Pan** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:17 pm

Jim,

are the walls of a concert-flute thinner than on a typicall whistle?

I gues the thinner the walls the more difference.

/Peter

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:49 pm

Pan,

I'm not Jim, but in general the answer is no. My flute tubing is around .014" and many of my whistles are around there, too. For example, my brass Burke is .014" but my Waltons is .016". My Parkhurst is significantly larger than that even.

Erik

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2002-10-23 18:49 ]</font>

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 8:48 pm

Sometimes the materials will lend a difference in sound that only the player or someone close to the player percieves. further out in the room it may sound the same compared to another instrument.

For the most part, material does not lend much to influencing the air column. I thing the thickness of material has effect on voicing and sound radiation patterns due to local cutoff frequency changes.
I have a Yamaha WX-5 Wind Controller with the VL70 Tone Generator and the the cutoff frequency is programmable. It really interesting to see how the cutoff frequency influences the tone.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Daniel_Bingamon on 2002-10-23 22:52 ]</font>