Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by Celtpastor »

Why don't You just simply name, what technical or design details made historic Welsh pipes typical Welsh? Then I'd agree! :thumbsup:
I say: Iconography doesn't show any!
Modern typical "Welsh pipes"? Yes, definitely! Historic pipes in Wales? Of course! :)
Historic "Welsh pipes"? No proof yet. On the contrary - all details of iconography point to the conclusion: Historic pipes in Wales were just the same as anywhere in Britain! If not - I still wait for You to name the design-details distinguishing them from pipes elsewhere!
Please, go on! :)
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by Geraint »

Dear me. Again? It's been evident from the first that there'd be no resolution to this.

So. I've made my argument. It's obvious that you don't accept it, and that's fine.

I can accept that. Why on earth must you go on? Why can't you just accept that we disagree?
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by pancelticpiper »

Geraint you make a very good point in that when a musical instrument rapidly spreads there will be little or no regional differentiation even across a vast area, but when that instrument has spent time in a locality it will, it must, develop distinctive localised characteristics.

This has been proven over and over again across the world in the realms of biology and linguistics and it likewise is true in the realm of organology.

One notion that has been proven time and again is the "age-area hypothesis" which suggests that if a thing is found widely spread with little variation, it has spread recently and rapidly, while if a thing shows a great deal of variation even within a limited geographical area, that the thing has been residing in that area for a long time.
Additionally, the point of greatest variation is likely the point of origin.

It's why a linguist who knew nothing about the history of English would immediately know that English was recently and rapidly spread in Australia, less recently in the Eastern United States, and that its point of origin was in Britain. (Two English towns a few miles apart might speak more differently than two Australian towns thousands of miles apart.)

Applied to bagpipes, it's obvious that the bagpipes spread quite rapidly across Western Europe in the Middle Ages and the same instrument can be found all over with little or no regional variation.

It just hasn't had the time (as it had in the Balkans) to develop a vast number of regional variations, the exception being France, which seems to have more variation than any other Western country.

The so-called "Celtic" pipes have the least variation of all, the Scottish Highland pipes, Breton biniou, and Spanish gaita being obviously very closely related though spread over a large area, and seperated by water etc.

From the evidence the pipes played in Cornwall were not of this "Celtic" type but rather of the typical Western European style.
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by Celtpastor »

What would be the difference between "Celtic" and "Western European" style?

It seems to me, e.g., that GHB, Veuze and Gaita are much closer related to German Schaeferpfeife, Flemish Pipes, french Cornemuse de Centre, Spanish/French Boudega, other non-Celtic Spanish Gaitas, than to Uilleannpipes (let alone SSP, which seem a lot closer to German Huemmelchen than to GHB!). I don't see anything distingiushable "Celtic" about the pipes from Celtic regions - not even the repertoire of music, since esp. in Breton music, it all blends together - in a typical Breton way :P

However - I'm at the moment thinking into an entirely different direction - I'd be thankfull for Your help, if I made any mistakes there... :thumbsup:

While generally it is true, that instruments do change more within time - and less when spread too far too fast - what started me thinking is:
There are bagpipes the US or Australia for almost three centuries now - but nothing like an "American" or "Australian"-type of bagpipe has evolved. Why? :really:
Probably because the people playing it wanted to show their being part of a certain culture (usually Scottish/Celtic). :)
Now - what if that was just the same in the middleages?
What I mean is this: We know very little about how the bagpipe came to Europe north of the Mediterranian - except for the fact, that they were neither pictured nor mentioned before about 9th/10th century - the time, when contacts between Northern and Mediterranean culture intensified.
The "Western European"-type seems to appear about 11th century - the time, when through the crusades there was more contact to mediterranean area (where single-reeded bagpipes as well as double reeded "Zurna"-type-shawns existed since at least 200 b.c.!) than in all centuries before. I also recall the usual pictures of bagpipes at this time (migh be wrong, feel free to correct me :puppyeyes: ) being rather in courtly context, unlike 3 or 4 centuries later, when we see them in a rather peasant context.
So - my idea would be: Like Scottish pipes today in the US or Australia, in the Middle-ages, the Western type of bagpipes did not change - not because it was spread so quickly, but mostly, because it was a sign of a certain knightly or courtly, at these times already very international culture.

An indication to that theory would e.g. be the form of the Latvian bagpipes today. While the (rural, ethnic) music-repertoire played on it is quite similar to bagpipes of nations around it (Dudmaisis, Torupill), making construction and fingering of the chanter (almost) identical to these, the outside design is entirely different - it looks exactly like the Western European type of the late middle-ages! Is it a surprise, that the area of nowadays Latvia used to be a stronghold of Western-European knights right until 19th century? :D
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by s1m0n »

Celtpastor wrote:I heard Galicians boast about from how many celtic tribes people came to Galicia within the centuries - there MUST have been some Cornish as well - so it's a Cornish pipe allright!
Because of Cornish tin, it's the one part of the British isles--in fact, of northern western Europe--that we can be most confidant was in regular contact with the classical world from the time of the Mediterranean bronze age onward.
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by pancelticpiper »

What would be the difference between "Celtic" and "Western European" style?
I don't see anything distingiushable "Celtic" about the pipes from Celtic regions...


I'm following the typology set forth in Baines, Bagpipes. He makes a good argument for the strong family resemblance between the GHB, Biniou, and Gaita.

There are bagpipes the US or Australia for almost three centuries now - but nothing like an "American" or "Australian"-type of bagpipe has evolved. Why?

There have not been bagpipes in the US for that long, in the sense of being part of an regional unbroken folk tradition of instrument making. Rather new waves of immigrants have brought their Scottish-made pipes with them over the centuries.
Where such a thing does exist is with the instrument called the Appalachian dulcimer or lap dulcimer or plectrum dulcimer. This began life as a zither brought to Pennsylvania by German immigrants and taken into Appalachia where it developed distinct localised regional characteristics.

What I mean is this: We know very little about how the bagpipe came to Europe north of the Mediterranian - except for the fact, that they were neither pictured nor mentioned before about 9th/10th century...

There is actually no evidence whatsoever that the bagpipe came from anywhere to Europe. Since all early evidence is European, any claim that the bagpipe originated elsewhere rests upon mere speculation.

mediterranean area (where single-reeded bagpipes as well as double reeded "Zurna"-type-shawns existed since at least 200 b.c.!)

I have seen no evidence whatever brought forth of bagpipes which predates the mention of Nero playing them, from the Mediterranean or from anywhere else.
Evidence of early non-bagpipes (mouthblown shawms etc) is not evidence of early bagpipes.
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by LuifeSpain »

Evidence of early non-bagpipes (mouthblown shawms etc) is not evidence of early bagpipes.



Do you think a bagpipe needs a bag for be a bagpipe? Maybe in english is a Logic question: Bag (deposit of air) + Pipe (piece of cane, metal, bone or wood where you play the music).

But in Spanish, we use GAITA to name Bagpipes. Pierre Bec, an important author about Medieval Music, has an important vision of the word GAITA with arabic influences. The first term for Gaita is not a bag with pipes. The first term is OBOE, because the arabic word "GHAIDA" means Oboe.

In the ancient literature from Spain, you will find the word Gaita accompanied with other instruments, like BAGpipes (Gaitas with bag).

Also we name GAITA to several instruments without bags, like some Spanish shawns.

So I consider that we have "Gaitas (bagpipes) with BAGS" and Gaitas (Bagpipes) without bags".

In Galicia, some old people plays the chanter with their mouth like a Bombarde. Some old people makes "Rosca", a single reed instrument with horn bell, that can be played with bag or without bag. Cane bagpipes in Spain can be played with or without bag...

In all regions, you must to clarify if you play the Gaita (shawn) or the GAITA DO FOL, GAITA DE FOLES, GAITA DE BOTO, GAITA DE ODRE (Fol, Foles, Boto, Odre means BAG). There is a differencie between Gaita and Gaita with Bag. But both are Gaitas. So...

Evidence of mouthblown shawns can be a good evidence of early bagpipes, because Shawns are bagpipes.
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by Celtpastor »

pancelticpiper wrote: I'm following the typology set forth in Baines, Bagpipes. He makes a good argument for the strong family resemblance between the GHB, Biniou, and Gaita.

He calls them "Atlantic or Celtic" and includes also the Italian Piva, but doesn't mention Schaeferpfeiffen or Flemish pipes. He distinguishes them from the "french peasant pipes" only by the position of the drones. Following that definition, the Boudega e.g. would be an "Atlantic or Celtic" pipe as well, whereas the Borderpipe wouldn't. Baines just didn't have all the examples and contacts to bagpiping regional cultures yet to get the whole picture, as we - with internet and everything - are able to get today. That's why his typology is inconsistent here.
pancelticpiper wrote: There have not been bagpipes in the US for that long, in the sense of being part of an regional unbroken folk tradition of instrument making. Rather new waves of immigrants have brought their Scottish-made pipes with them over the centuries.
There might be a point in that... However - even though we have US and Canadian pipemakers for at least a century as well - and pipers since the early 1700s! - there still hasn't evolved any typical American design. Because they still refer to Scottish culture! Might have been similar in parts of Western Europe (e.g. Wales? :D ) refering to knightly culture. And we also don't have a clue, where the - existing but rarely mentioned - Welsh pipers got their pipes from! No proof for Welsh pipemakers - England is not that far away!
pancelticpiper wrote: There is actually no evidence whatsoever that the bagpipe came from anywhere to Europe. Since all early evidence is European, any claim that the bagpipe originated elsewhere rests upon mere speculation.
I have seen no evidence whatever brought forth of bagpipes which predates the mention of Nero playing them, from the Mediterranean or from anywhere else.

We do have it mentioned in Greek scriptures from about 400 b.C. (Aristophanes: "Lysistrata", "Acharnians") as "auloi" ("Reed-pipes"), played by blowing into a bladder or a dog's behind. ;-) Also, we have a hellenistic figure, dated 2nd century b.C. in a museum in Berlin from Egypt, playing a droneless bagpipe. So, first mentions and iconography come from greek-influenced mediterranean area, centuries b.C. Also, Nero's pipes had been named by Dio Chrysostomos and Martial with Greek names, thus pointing them out as Greek instruments. So, yes, first mentions of bagpipes do come from Europe - but not from Northern or Western Europe, only from the mediterraneans. There is not a single sign of bagpipes anywhere else before a millenium later - when contacts to mediterranean culture intensified! :love:
And the first reed-pipes with double-chanter or drone were found about 140mls south of Baghdad, dated about 2500 b.C. ("Silver Pipes of Ur"). Their basic construction is astoundingly similar to todays chanters of Iraqi "Ney-Anban" (got one here ;-) ). Not really European, hmm..? :really:
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by Ciarameddaru »

Celtpaster, you should know about this being a religious guy... But my elderly Sicilian friend who sold me my ciaramedda believed firmly that there was a ciarameddaro playing at the nativity scene to annunciate and celebrate the birth of Christ. In fact, he and his piping brother re-enact this scene every Christmas in their town. That's definitively placing the Sicilian(Mediterranean) pipes back at least 2000 years. Forget all your typology mumbojumbo, could you, or Baines, or anyone possibly argue with this? :wink:
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by Celtpastor »

:D
I know these kinds of people... I know some Scottish pipers, who are FIRMLY convinced, that the GHB had been the very first bagpipes ever invented - by the ancient Celts (of course) - Y'know, those people, who also build Stonehenge (of course...). :boggle:
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by Yuri »

There was a gaita player with Cortez's forces when they landed in Mexico in. if I remember correctly 1517. True, Cortez hasn't gone on to the North, but others did. My point is that the Spanish were very much present in what today is the South of the US as early as the 1530-s. (the oldest standing church in the US is, if memory serves me right, in New Mexico, dated 1530.) Now, it would be stupid to maintain that no, there definitely were no gaiteros with them, because we don't have any evidence! (It would be just as stupid as saying, no, they haven't had a piss, ever, because no-one recorded it. Well, no-one has.)
Celtpastor, and Luife. Finally I get the idea why really this thing about not accepting the mouthblown equivalents of the bagpipes as bagpipes is so ingrained with the purely English-speaking players. It's the language. I have had the same discussion/argument (in the good sense) with Pancelticpiper on another forum, well, he won't accept the validity that the cheeks of a player are a bag. Turn your back on a launeddas player, or an arghul player, and there is no way you can guess whether there is or isn't a bag present. And I do keep on pointing out the Volga, Bosnian and Tunisian living traditions of instruments that are played both with and without bags, often the same given instrument. Didn't know it happens in Spain, too.
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by LuifeSpain »

Well Yuri, I will tell somethings of my particular "Bagpipe clasification":

1.- A Bag is not neccesary for get a bagpipe. You can have bagpipes without bags like Launeddas.

2.- A bagpipe with bag is played with continuous sound. A bagpipe without bag:
2.1.- Can be played with continuous sound (circular breath). The bag is the Mouth.
2.2.- Can be player without continuous sound like Dulzainas in Spain (Gaitas), where you cut between notes with the tongue. Something similar can be ejecuted in the Zurna sometimes.

SO the continuous sound is NOT a necessary characteristic for get a Bagpipe.

3.- A bagpipe can have drones or not. Drones are not a necessary characteristic.


SO THE CONCLUSION IS: The basic basic bagpipe is really a simple thing: for me, the most primitive thing is a single-reed pipe played with the mouth.

Also you can have very complex bagpipes with four drones, three regulators or triple chanters, but they are elaborated versions of the basic thing.
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by Ciarameddaru »

To add to your list Yuri, Circularly blown Ney Anban:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdQElDjL ... re=channel
And (I really like this song):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO5mAsHzR94
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by Nanohedron »

Ciarameddaru wrote:Celtpaster, you should know about this being a religious guy... But my elderly Sicilian friend who sold me my ciaramedda believed firmly that there was a ciarameddaro playing at the nativity scene to annunciate and celebrate the birth of Christ. In fact, he and his piping brother re-enact this scene every Christmas in their town. That's definitively placing the Sicilian(Mediterranean) pipes back at least 2000 years. Forget all your typology mumbojumbo, could you, or Baines, or anyone possibly argue with this? :wink:
Just a brief sidetrack here, Ciarameddaru, but up to now I assumed your nick was Welsh! Now I have to stop pronouncing it "Kiarameðari". :wink:
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Re: Pibau Cymru / Welsh Bagpipes

Post by Ciarameddaru »

Nanohedron,
No! If I were Welsh I would have been posting even earlier in this thread trying to convince everyone that there was such thing as an indigenous Welsh bagpipe! :D
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