Sax Pros Tune Themselves - Could this apply to us as well?

[pancelticpiper]

I think that the shape of the vocal tract is perhaps even more crucial on the clarinet. Some of the notes are even called "throat tones". I thought that this referred to the fact that these notes are played by keys high up in the throat area of the instrument, but clarinetists have told me that the name comes from the special throat technique that is required.

[Denny]

Anyone up for a minor tracheotomy?

perhaps not as invasive....video x-rays

ah....and some light reading

yeah....kinda vibrato orientated lot, ain't they

[Denny]

I think that the shape of the vocal tract is perhaps even more crucial on the clarinet.

yeah, more direct coupled things than flute, ain't they

There is a very big difference between the sax and flute situations. In the sax, the players vocal chords can influence the sax, and the vibrating air column in the sax can exert influence on the vocal chords, as they are essentially coupled into an airtight tube.

[flutefry]

Couldn't this be a situation where the what (changing shape of throat and vocal cords makes a difference to tone production) is correct, but the why (resonance in body being transferred to the flute) is wrong?

As somebody said in the first Star Trek series, "I canna change the laws of physics", so I don't think the body resonance idea can be true. Yet I do find that thinking about the note as if I was going to sing while I am playing helps make my tone more consistent and fuller. I wonder if it's because I am paying attention to the preparation of the note, and to the idea that different notes need different microembouchures that results in the improvement when I "throat tune"?

Hugh

[Nanohedron]

Well, we'd have to go and try it. That means we'd have to practice...Actually, though, it's a fascinating idea to me. I've been looking at the info here and will be trying it later today. Not entirely sure the best way to guide myself doing it, but it's worth a go.

No one sees the self-fulfilling prophecy? A control group (i.e., most flute players) would eventually achieve better tone and volume with practice. It still wouldn't tell us if the vocal chords were involved.

In order to determine the scientific merit of what has been proposed, the vocal chords would have to be examined in situ. Anyone up for a minor tracheotomy?

I suppose a fluoroscope might do the trick, but I'm trying to cut down on my radiation these days.

I think that what's more to the point is not so much what is actually involved, medically speaking, but the feeling one goes by, physically, to produce a better end result. That, at least, can be communicated and taught, and, one hopes, learned.

[Denny]

fluoroscope

video x-rays

was a fluoroscope, I just copied the page title. (BTW Mr. dialup, the page is save it's the quicktime videos that will mess with ya)

I think that what's more to the point is not so much what is actually involved, medically speaking, but the feeling one goes by, physically, to produce a better end result. That, at least, can be communicated and taught, and, one hopes, learned.

one must alway maintain hope, eh

Yar, who needs that science stuff anyhow! Didn't have no fluoroscope back in the 1800's! Raise the mainsail!

[daiv]

Well, we'd have to go and try it. That means we'd have to practice...Actually, though, it's a fascinating idea to me. I've been looking at the info here and will be trying it later today. Not entirely sure the best way to guide myself doing it, but it's worth a go.

No one sees the self-fulfilling prophecy? A control group (i.e., most flute players) would eventually achieve better tone and volume with practice. It still wouldn't tell us if the vocal chords were involved.

In order to determine the scientific merit of what has been proposed, the vocal chords would have to be examined in situ. Anyone up for a minor tracheotomy?

the vocal chords are not involved. it is the resonance of the throat. the vocal chords are used to get the throat set up. when i work on my throat tuning, i can feel the notes in my mouth and throat throat ("taste them"), and actually hear the difference from the inside of my ear canal-- it makes the notes unbearably loud.

when i work on my resonance/tone, i put the flute up to my mouth and try to sing the note i am going to play, and then work with the internal shapes of my mouth and throat until i can feel the air column the flute vibrating. this works even when i do not have any embouchure at all. when i then try to play (keeping my mouth and throat the same), the flute speaks effortlessly, clearly, and with an unbelievably amount of tonal flexibility. what is more, i can play with embouchure sh apes that would not produce any sort of pleasant tone otherwise.

[Cork]

...As somebody said in the first Star Trek series, "I canna change the laws of physics", so I don't think the body resonance idea can be true...

There's an old American baseball saying, that the game ain't over 'til the fat lady sings.

Then there's opera. For instance, have you ever seen a skinny opera singer?

[Denny]

Then there's opera.

have ya no shame?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7trldSOwvoA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbBHx2_17Bc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi-0XYpoisU

[flutefry]

Cork, I agree that resonance in the body is important for singers, single reed players, and double reed players. The singer's body and the instrument are the same in the first instance, and the reed vibrates inside the mouth in the second instance.

Where I disagree is that there is a mechanism for transferring resonance in the body to the flute or vice versa. That's why I am looking for a reason that is possible. I could just do it because it works of course....

Hugh

[Cork]

...Where I disagree is that there is a mechanism for transferring resonance in the body to the flute or vice versa. That's why I am looking for a reason that is possible. I could just do it because it works of course....

Hugh

The medium which transfers the resonance of the flute player is the flute player's air stream.

After all, air has mass, too, and the flute is a very sensitive instrument.

[daiv]

Couldn't this be a situation where the what (changing shape of throat and vocal cords makes a difference to tone production) is correct, but the why (resonance in body being transferred to the flute) is wrong?

As somebody said in the first Star Trek series, "I canna change the laws of physics", so I don't think the body resonance idea can be true. Yet I do find that thinking about the note as if I was going to sing while I am playing helps make my tone more consistent and fuller. I wonder if it's because I am paying attention to the preparation of the note, and to the idea that different notes need different microembouchures that results in the improvement when I "throat tune"?

Hugh

the article states, "... Wolfe and colleagues attached a thin probe to the mouthpiece of a tenor saxophone that measured acoustics inside the vocal tract while the saxophone was being played..." This clearly is some data showing that mouth and throat resonance is indeed a measurable phenomena. the laws of physics are only laws because they have been proved by experiments, and this one not only has been proved by an experiment, but it does not go against the laws of acoustics, at all.

when a harmonic system is set in motion, the resulting sound waves travel in more than one direction. when you apply pressure on to a system, there is always an equal, and opposite pressure. the pressure of the air over the air stream should be present in both directions, not just outwards. sound "waves" are in reality, longitudinal waves of pressure, and if they are travelling away from the mouth, this pressure would also go in towards the mouth, as well.

the mouth resonance is likely inverse to the pressure that is going into the flute. although the amount of energy supplied into the system is constant for any note, the back pressure is constantly changing, as there are two aspects of any sound wave: compression and rarefraction. if anyone knows better than me, i would like to know if my guess is correct. however, i think it is counterintuitive to thinks that the notes do not resonate in ones throat and mouth, as that would go against the basic laws of energy systems.

[Guinness]

ah....and some light reading

yeah....kinda vibrato orientated lot, ain't they

Intensity vibrato as a result of some vocal fold involvement. The author does not go as far as to suggest any effect on pitch, harmonic content, or maximum amplitude. Disclaimer: I read this article lightly and I'll have to watch the videos on another computer.

[flutefry]

As already noted, singers and single reed players don't tell us anything about flute players. So these data aren't relevant to the argument.

The question is whether resonances in the body/throat/mouth can be transferred to the flute. This idea requires that vibrations imparted to the airstream before it leaves the mouth have an effect on the sound of the flute, whose sound comes from vibration of an air column within the flute.

I like the analogy of a reservoir supplying water (body resonance) over a falls (airstream from mouth to flute), to a pool below (the vibration in the flute. My cheerful, but completely ignorant, guess is that regardless of whether the reservoir is still or has big waves in it, the wave motion detected in the pool below will depend only on the falls. In other words, it won't change whether the reservoir is still or resonating.

I don't see how the proportion of vibration in the flute provided by body resonance can be anything but miniscule compared to the shape, direction, and velocity of the airstream.

Daiv seems to be arguing that it's transfer from the flute to the body that matters. Is this your argument?

Hugh

[Denny]

I'll have to watch the videos on another computer.

the bits that I found most interesting were what I could
see and hear when she was not demonstrating vibrato
...trying to see past the main thrust of the videos, eh