Nicholson, the flute master

[Jumbuk]

don't ever study Beethoven, Strauss, Bach, Brahms.....or dare I say, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, or.....well, fill in the blanks. You'd drive yourself mad trying to understand any of it without a tape recording at your elbow.

Somewhat of a straw man. I don't think you are talking about studying any of the esteemed composers instrumental tone quality / virtuosity etc are you? Study of compositions is not limited by death of the composer because I can walk into a concert hall or buy a recording and get a fair idea of what was intended, plus what I hear will very likely bear a close resemblance to what I imagine when I look at a printed score. On the other hand, would it make sense to study Mozart's violin tone by reference to written historical materials? Perhaps yes to a certain extent, but it could never reach the level of even a brief hearing of a Menuin recital.

[monkey587]

David,

You know, I get your point. Yeah, it's true: I am an ignorant dumbass in some ways.

Don't worry, he was probably yelling at me. I think my intentions were misunderstood... I will try one last time, by approaching it from a different direction.

Point one: I expect the Chris Norman's own tone is much more important to him than Nicholson's, and the same went for Rampal. I'm sure they had their idols but to get to that level as an individual artist I believe they had to follow their own sensibilities.

Point two: I don't think Molloy, McEvoy, or whoever the top irish players are any less remarkable because they don't use their keys much. I believe they are playing the notes they want to play and if they felt like they were missing something, they would figure out how to make it happen.

Point three: I don't think one has to study 19th century classical flute in order to play irish music well.

If these positions make me ignorant, narrowminded, and worthy of such anger, then there's no point in my continuing to participate.

[talasiga]

so i suspect we should fully ignore all the written materials of the day, reviews and texts (many of them) that described how Nicholson played.....how Drouet played.....how Richardson played.....how Rudall himself played.....how Pratten played!

.....

I think you're onto something here. Remember Honest Abe Lincoln, the great American President. Was he really that altruistic? I mean where is the TV doco where he was televised live? Where are the CIA phone taps to demonstrate he was as honest as they make out.

Yes, historical records cannot be credible merely on the basis of recording methods contemporary to their occurence. New technology must be able to to go there and record that history according to the standard of technology we now have. Otherwise history is not relevant.

I apply this to my personal life as well. I never apologise for any error on my part unless the error can be prooived by DVD or video recording. I mean we all know the defects of literary reporting, don't we?

Actually there is no filmic or audio proof that Nicholson could even play a flute. And don't expect us to believe what is written in a book. People can write things that aren't true although very persuasive. I mean look at my post here right now.

See yers around ......

[monkey587]

Elaboration on points two and three. I never meant to imply that mastering usage of the keys or other 19th century techniques would prevent one from playing irish music well, either. I just don't think they're necessary.

[Eldarion]

so i suspect we should fully ignore all the written materials of the day, reviews and texts (many of them) that described how Nicholson played.....how Drouet played.....how Richardson played.....how Rudall himself played.....how Pratten played!

Ignorance and narrowmindedness must be a blissful position: there is so little left to challenge what little you have left!

Well no, if you're interested in the use of the simple system flute in the 19th century for what we know as western art music you probably shouldn't ignore those people and their writings. But for anyone whose just interested in Irish traditonal music on the wooden flute it is of little relevance.

Once again this argument boils down to measuring one genre with the yardstick of another - something I find akin to a form of musical imperialism (or if given the benefit of the doubt, ignorance). I'm talking about implying not using keys "properly" as being "lazy", or "missing music". Or giving the same flack to traditional fiddlers for not moving out of the first position, when playing an instrument designed for 4 octaves or more. It is judging Irish traditional music through the terms of western art music, and has paid little consideration to the contexts of the musical genres to begin with.

It is as ridiculous as if jazz pianists were to complain that classical pianists lack innovation and spontaneity, after hearing no harmonic or melodic improvisation in a performance of Beethoven or Chopin. Or a traditional fiddler saying that classical musicians lack the nyaah and they should work on that when playing Paganini or Ysaye.

I wanted to add on Chris Norman that his performances take up everything possible for ITM.

Listen to his playing and anything you'll ever wish to accomplish in ITM is in his repetoire. And he does it exceptionally well.

That's what I meant.

Yes I know from your repeated exultations of Chris Norman's playing that you think very highly of him, and yes I think he's a good flute player too. But statements like these say more about your understanding of the Irish traditional music than anything else

[dow]

Very interesting thread. I hope you don't mind my jumping in with a thought or two.

. . . But for anyone whose just interested in Irish traditional music on the wooden flute it is of little relevance.

I'm not sure that I can completely agree with this. While it's certainly not necessary that you know the classical repertoire to play ITM, I do believe that an appreciation, from a technical standpoint, of flute music of the day, or for that matter of classical flute music today is important. Please notice that I said from a technical standpoint. How many times have we heard or recommended, "To gain control, you should practice playing softly. When you can do that well, you can play loudly as well." or, "To get a good bottom D, practice playing in the upper register. When you can do that well, the bottom D will come of itself." Granted these bits of advice do not mandate that we study Nicholson or anybody else, and certainly, there's no need to study Nicholson to the exclusion of all else, or Chris Norman for that matter. I think that the important thing here is that by studying the players and music of the past, whether ITM or classical, and by working through some of the music, we become better players overall. And THAT is worth working on, regardless of the genre of music that you're into.

Now, do I do that? Not yet, I'm afraid (ledger lines give me vertigo ), although I do play some of my son's clarinet music when he's not around. However, I intend to start, because this will make me a better player overall, and will give me better command of the flute itself. And THAT will make me better at ITM.

[Rob Sharer]

so i suspect we should fully ignore all the written materials of the day, reviews and texts (many of them) that described how Nicholson played.....how Drouet played.....how Richardson played.....how Rudall himself played.....how Pratten played!

Ignorance and narrowmindedness must be a blissful position: there is so little left to challenge what little you have left!

don't ever study Beethoven, Strauss, Bach, Brahms.....or dare I say, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, or.....well, fill in the blanks. You'd drive yourself mad trying to understand any of it without a tape recording at your elbow.

Why listen to Rampal? His is obviously only guesswork of a master we have no recording of how they actually sounded.....so he could never know he was doing it "right."

Quick.....close your door! Some light might actually leak in!

David, I agree with you about the 8-key flute. I agree with you about classical music. I agree with you about Chris Norman, Niall Keegan, peoples' flabby lips, etc. So why, if we don't have any grounds for disagreement, am I sitting here feeling pissed off after reading this post?

Must be your tone. Why don't you just say what you have to say, without sounding so bloody pedantic all of the time? I rarely feel compelled to address this sort of thing, i.e. the ad hominem rather than the argument, but I feel it needs to be said: get off your high horse and be civil! You're no smarter than the rest of us, no matter how much you've read. We don't need to be talked down to, and you don't need to do it to make a good point. Cheers,

Rob

[Denny]

Must be your tone.

it's just NE US humor & general way, innit

don't mean nuttin'

[Loren]

David, I agree with you about the 8-key flute. I agree with you about classical music. I agree with you about Chris Norman, Niall Keegan, peoples' flabby lips, etc. So why, if we don't have any grounds for disagreement, am I sitting here feeling pissed off after reading this post?

Must be your tone. Why don't you just say what you have to say, without sounding so bloody pedantic all of the time? I rarely feel compelled to address this sort of thing, i.e. the ad hominem rather than the argument, but I feel it needs to be said: get off your high horse and be civil! You're no smarter than the rest of us, no matter how much you've read. We don't need to be talked down to, and you don't need to do it to make a good point. Cheers,

Rob

Here we go again with the Political Correctness Police.

Rob, I feel this needs to be said: Get off your high horse and stop telling people here how they should communicate. Your opinions on the subject of communication style are no more valid than than anyone else's here, no matter what you think. You are being hypocritical in suggesting others not talk down to anyone, yet that is exactly what you are doing to David - not that he needs me to defend him by any stretch. Rob, you don't need to constantly foist your sensibilities onto the rest of us in order to contribute here.




Cheers


Loren

[Rob Sharer]

Rob, you don't need to constantly foist your sensibilities onto the rest of us in order to contribute here.

No, but I'm certainly allowed to, aren't I? They are, after all, my sensibilities, and I, as a member of the community, am permitted to foist as I see fit.

Cheers,

Rob

[Loren]

Rob, you don't need to constantly foist your sensibilities onto the rest of us in order to contribute here.

No, but I'm certainly allowed to, aren't I? They are, after all, my sensibilities, and I, as a member of the community, am permitted to foist as I see fit.

Cheers,

Rob

Indeed, we should all commence to foisting, since it will make for such harmony and constructive conversation. "Hey you! I agree with you but I don't like the way you talk, knock it off and start talking like me!" Good stuff there. Really valuable trying to cram someone else into your box. A bit controlling of you, really.



Cheers,

Loren

[johnkerr]

would be as useful as studying the music of the "flute geezers," mcevoy, tansey, molloy, etc..

Next time I see Catherine I'll tell her you referred to her as a geezer, William. I'm sure it will make her day!

But don't worry, I don't know either Seamus Tansey or Matt Molloy, so the fact that you think of them as geezers too is safe with me...

[Rob Sharer]

Whatever, dude.

Rob

[Denny]

perhaps a diversity training seminar?

[Loren]

Whatever, dude.

Rob

Nice one! Very Eloquent.



Loren