Flute versus whistle for Irish music

DazedinLA · Post by **DazedinLA** » Mon May 13, 2002 11:12 am

Being Dazed aint so bad, Cees!!!:)

</

Its nice to have some company!!!

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon May 13, 2002 11:30 am

On 2002-05-12 23:02, ChrisA wrote:
My post, btw, oversimplified the physics of music-making; it's obviously possible for other factors to affect the tone output, witness guitar where equal length strings generate different tones... but on dulcimer, piano, and harp, string length determines tone. (Presumably tension and thickness have an effect too...)

Actually the string gauge has as great an effect on the pitch as the length. In the piano and harp and most hammered dulcimers, there are different string gauges so that the instruments don't have to be incredibly long, and the tension can remain reasonably constant. (If the high-C on a five-octave harp was 4" long, the lowest string would have to be 21 feet long if the strings were all the same gauge).

As for the Ocarina, it's very weird in that it's not a tube, it's a globe, so the physics of other blown instruments don't apply. I'm not sure what physics -do- apply.

I'm not sure about ocarinas either. I would have thought they'd behave like closed organ pipes, but they don't, at least not exactly. The organ pipe has a frequency determined primarily by the length, and they allow multiple harmonics, ie, can be blown into a higher octave. The ocarina can't be blown into a higher register, plus the note depends largely on the diameter of the instrument, and the pitch is changed mostly by the area of the tone holes that are opened, not on their positions.

Does anyone know how these babies work?

Charlie

DanD · Post by **DanD** » Mon May 13, 2002 1:05 pm

On 2002-05-11 19:11, jim stone wrote:
Anyway, I started on whistle;now
I'm learning flute. Apples, oranges,
I reckon. But I wonder how the
low D whistle, a good one, compares
with a low D celtic flute?

Are they more or less interchangeable?

Tony Dixon in fact makes a dual head combo that lets you switch between a low D whistle head and a flute head.
In my experience FWIW, it is easier to get different tonal textures, (i.e. raspy vs. sweet & pure,) and better control over dynamics, from a flute.
For instance, I tried a Silkstone Low D at the Whistleshop that had a wonderfully "reedy" tone. But, there was no way to change that tone - it was going to play reedy whether you were playing jigs or lullabys. My Copley flute, can play with a reedy tone, or with a clear, purer tone, depending on my embouchure.
However, you pay a price for those added tones - you spend hours (years!)developing your embouchure so that you can control when you get those tones. (And I ain't there yet!!)

ChrisA · Post by **ChrisA** » Mon May 13, 2002 1:44 pm

On 2002-05-13 06:41, Walden wrote:
I think we would call a flute pitched like a high D whistle, a fife. For example, the Sweetheart folk fifes.

This took me some time to figure out... in modern parlance, a fife is a side-blown flute tuned to the first and second overtones, so that it plays, essentially, an octave higher than you'd expect for the length.

The piccollo is a side-blown flute which is in the same lengths and pitches as the 'high' whistles.

However... what a modern musician would call a 'piccollo', is often labeled as a 'fife' in 'old-style' instruments, like the SweetHeart 'Rennaissance Fife', which is just a short sideblown flute, meant to be played in the fundamental and first overtones...

In conclusion, call them what you want 'cause they've apparently been called all kinds of things over the centuries (many of these things are not printable, especially in the earlier stages of learning...) but be ready to clarify.

--ChrisA

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Mon May 13, 2002 6:55 pm

A piccolo and a fife aren't the same size, but mostly (in everyday use) its called a piccolo if its keyed. Of course many 6-hole flutemakers offer a keyless piccolo, I'm just talking generalities.

I have a wonderful high-pitched Chinese dizi in C (in Chinese terms F, as they don't go by bell note). I played a carol on it in church, at Christmastime, and someone mistook the long, banded, bamboo instrument for a croquet mallet, till they heard its beautiful music.

As for the acoustics of the ocarina, Grove's Dictionary of Music (found in every local library I know of, and I'm not in a metropolis), gives some explanation of it. I think it has diagrammes.

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Mon May 13, 2002 11:27 pm

Where's a musicologist when you need one? I'm not one, but here's my two cents worth any way.

Plucked (or hammered) stings are not simple wave tones. As a example pluck a guitar string 1" from the bridge and then pluck it in the center of the string. The difference is in the domainance of the primary tone wave and its various harmonics. You can eliminate the primary tone completely and leave only the harmonics by lightly touching the string on the 12th fret which is the center point of the string, the plucked string now has a its secondary tone as dominant, one octave higher than primary tone. If you pluck the string 1/4 of the way up, with your finger still holding the string motionless above the 12 fret (half way point) you get sound were the secondary harmonic is so dominant that you can barely hear the other harmonics. It give a chiming type of tone. This works on any plucked string or hammered string.

I've been playing a twelve string guitar, off and on, for over 20 years. I became familiar with these harmonics because the 12 string has it first 4 pairs of strings tuned an octave apart. Prior to electronic tuners, it used to take me 30-45 minutes to tune the thing up using a tuning fork. I'd work my way across the strings matching fretted string to the next higher string; and then, I'd check all the matching harmonics.

I still have an E tuning fork. I took it out to use to test. It matches the high E string on my guitar, and the first octave e on a regulard-d whistle, and the second octave E on a low-D whistle. On a guitar this high E-string is the 2nd E above middle C. This would lead me to believe that the bell tone on the low/tenor-D is the D above middle-C, the D on a regular/soprano-D is the 2nd D above middle C.

I confirmed this by playing the 3rd string of the guitar first open and then with the 12fret harmonic. The bell tone of my regular D whistle matches the harmonic much better than the open string. This string is the D above middle C.

Well that's my two cents. Any one with an osciliscope that can give us more data?

High or not, it still about how you ...

_________________

Enjoy Your Music, Lee Marsh 

[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2002-05-14 01:30 ]

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 6:54 am

Here is the physics; speed of sound = wave length times frequency.
For middle C frequency is 440 beats per sec (oops didn't check that just remembered) speed of sound is 331 metres per sec. 331/440 is 0.75 as near as damnit so that's your tube length for middle C. D is not far off and that means our low D's are above middle C.

Brian

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:53 am

I can't move my tuner (computer) close enough to the piano to get a number, but the bell note on a soprano D whistle is 587.3 Hz.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Ridseard · Post by **Ridseard** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 8:03 am

Lee Marsh is right. The piano is very rich in harmonic (and non-harmonic) overtones. The strongest overtone in a sustained tone is the 2nd harmonic, which is an octave above the note being played. So, for example, when you strike the D above middle C key, you are also hearing, perhaps without realizing it, the D an octave up, which is the pitch of the bell note on a soprano D whistle. This can trick the ear into "hearing" the whistle and piano notes as having the same pitch.

energy · Post by **energy** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 8:37 am

About the accordion thing...it's my understanding(someone correct me if I'm wrong) that accordions generally have two to four reeds for every note. Each reed is tuned in a different octave(an effort to create artificial harmonics, I guess?); I think(but I'm not absolutely 100% sure) that usually at least one of the reed sets are tuned an octave below the normal middle C octave that a concertina is tuned in. So I think this should explain, Chris, why concertinas sound liked they could be tuned an octave up to you(they're not).

RonKiley · Post by **RonKiley** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 1:08 pm

An easy experiment is to play the whistle and flute into a tuner. Jerry is right the soprano D whistle is 583.7 Hz and the D flute and Low D whistle are 293.65 Hz. There are plenty of free tuners on the internet.

I do not play the flute (yet). To me the whistle or flute should be chosen to match the tune being played. They are not necessarily interchangeable. They both make great music.

Keep whistling
Ron

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 1:30 pm

I tried the flute. I got some serious pain in the arms from it. The only way I could play that instrument would be to develop an extra bend in my left arm. Just doesn't work for me!

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:37 pm

A above middle C is 440 beats per second. Sorry I got that wrong.

Brian

NicoMoreno · Post by **NicoMoreno** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:33 pm

I have to post this:

Physics of wind instruments and stringed instruments:
Wind: wavelength is determined by L = n Lambda / 2 for one end open (a whistle or flute) where wavelength=lambda. v=f*Lambda (f is freq. v is sound waves which are 343 m/s STP) This means that if you know the wavelength you know the freq. and if you know the length of the tube you know the freq.

String
Wave: y(x,t) = Asin(kx+wt+phi)
Speed of the wave is v = f*Lambda = sqrt(T/mu) where T = tension, mu ("Mew") is linear density (read "gauge")
This means that the freq of a string is not only determined by length, but also by the tension in the string, OR by its linear density --> mass per length. This means that the low notes on a guitar are under less tension and have a greater linear denisty than the high ones. That is why, in my experience, high strings break faster.

Anecdote: I have heard a rumour that a bass (stand-up classical with a bow kind of thing) player had a string break, and the tension was so great that he also lost his head. Literally.

Warning: NEVER clip those piano strings!! My music teacher's dad did that but somehow did not die.

Also, middle C is below A=440, while the High D is above, but the Low D is below 440. Since A is between C and High D, High D cannot be the D above (directly ie one tone) middle C. I have never had a problem comparing these notes on piano vs whistle. Must be because I never tune my whistles to piano (or play piano at all)

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:52 pm

I, Christopher Laughlin, the Supreme Leader and Protector of the Irish Musical Tradition ( http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=11444 ), declare this the most rediculous thread ever on Chiff and Fipple.
It has been spoken,
Chris

Chiff and Fipple Forums

Flute versus whistle for Irish music

Low D high D middle C

A above middle C is 440 beats per second