Why does a small hole flute seem like a sports car?

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:23 pm

Wormdiet wrote:Once again I hope everybody is treating this thread as a debate rather than anything personal. . . .

I thought we were done discussing the viability of flutes as a motor vehicle analogy.

le_koukou · Post by **le_koukou** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:40 am

What about Boehm flutes? They have huge holes AND they are very responsive (at least the decent ones).

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:04 am

Wormdiet wrote:On a broader level, I absolutely agree with you that reviews are often overly glowing and often do not really provide any useful info to prospective buyers. The ones I pay attention to are from players who have owned or had long-term experience with many different flutes. James P's reviews, for instance, or Dave M's, or Katski's, have a lot of weight behind them. My own don't, point taken.

David often makes the point that one should always include their experience level when reviewing gear, and that just makes sense. I am not sure

On this, my dear Wormdiet, you and I are, as they say, 'congruent.' But that subject matter deserves a whole other thread.

Wonderful to see some other folks diving into the thread too. Or should that be driving into the thread?

"Is an Olwell more responsive than a Dixon 2-piece?" Sadly, I dunno. I don't have either, and haven't played either. If you'd said 'better than' instead of 'more responsive than' I'd have less difficulty understanding, and that's because we still haven't got a decent definition of 'responsiveness'.

For example, Flutefry says "If one can consistently play the passage/tune on one instrument faster than the other, then one is more responsive."

This is nothing more than a measure of comfort, for me at least. I can consistently play faster on one of my D flutes than another, for the simple fact that one flute has a slim body and the other is fat. Fat-bodied flutes aggravate my tendonitis, slim bodied flutes don't. I have two fat-bodied flutes, one Prattenesquey and one Rudallesquey, and the hole sizes are irrelevant as far as comfort, playability, and therefore 'responsiveness' is concerned. For me and my elbow, anyway. Similarly, I can play well enough on a Bb, but for a lot longer (and 'faster') on a D or an Eb, again wholely because of the fatitudiness of the flutes. As I said, it's a comfort thing.

Jack Bradshaw wrote:there are good physical reasons why the small hole flute may be more responsive (ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL).

hehe! Dear Jack! I love the commitment! "may be", "all other things being equal" Niiiice use of get-out-of-jail-free clauses

"Notice, higher frequency instrument with the same Q = larger bandwidth = shorter response time, etc etc"

teehee. I think we lost the Trekkies there Jack. Me, I'm from an electronics engineering background, so Q means 'goodness' to me

But the note-bending experiment is pants, isn't it? Bending a note is entirely embouchure-control, and therefore player, dependant. A good player can likely bend a note further and smoother than someone who's just bought a Hall Crystal flute and thinks the tone is fantastic, in spite of never playing a flute before.

Therefore good players are more 'responsive' than newbies, therefore good players are sports cars!

The same "hissiness" that signifies wide bandwidth lets the flute "jump" between octaves the faster (personally, that's the aspect that feels more like an oversteering sports car)

The 'hissiest' flute I have was made in Pakistan. I have a Pakistani sports car?? Actually I'm stretching the truth a bit; that flute was really hissy when I first bought it, but the hissiness slowly disappeared. I don't think the flute's bandwidth changed though, I think it's just that my embouchure improved and became a lot more efficient, therefore less hissy, as a result.

Anyway, I've owned and driven sports cars (Triumph GT6 MkII was my favourite) and I own and play flutes. I know the difference.

I had to get a taxi to work today. I discovered my MoT has expired, and so I can't drive my Peugeot 106 until it's re-tested, and that won't be until Friday. My flutes are therefore like a Peugeot 106... sitting at home doing buggrall waiting for me.

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:24 am

le_koukou wrote:What about Boehm flutes? They have huge holes AND they are very responsive (at least the decent ones).

Vorsprung Durch Technik!! Built by robots, driven by Italians!

Jack Bradshaw · Post by **Jack Bradshaw** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:13 am

GaryKelly wrote:
Jack Bradshaw wrote:there are good physical reasons why the small hole flute may be more responsive (ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL).
hehe! Dear Jack! I love the commitment! "may be", "all other things being equal" Niiiice use of get-out-of-jail-free clauses

"Notice, higher frequency instrument with the same Q = larger bandwidth = shorter response time, etc etc"

teehee. I think we lost the Trekkies there Jack. Me, I'm from an electronics engineering background, so Q means 'goodness' to me

Q is certainly good for amplitude.......I'm also sure you've passed a square wave through a filter, eh? Or built a super-regen (a better example in this case)

GaryKelly wrote: But the note-bending experiment is pants, isn't it? Bending a note is entirely embouchure-control, and therefore player, dependant. A good player can likely bend a note further and smoother than someone who's just bought a Hall Crystal flute and thinks the tone is fantastic, in spite of never playing a flute before.

Therefore good players are more 'responsive' than newbies, therefore good players are sports cars!

I'd have to go along w/ that, even if it isn't QED!

The same "hissiness" that signifies wide bandwidth lets the flute "jump" between octaves the faster (personally, that's the aspect that feels more like an oversteering sports car)

GaryKelly wrote: The 'hissiest' flute I have was made in Pakistan. I have a Pakistani sports car?? ......... I know the difference.

Unsafe at any speed ??

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:07 am

GaryKelly wrote:Therefore good players are more 'responsive' than newbies, therefore good players are sports cars!

So I'm a pickup?

Jack Bradshaw · Post by **Jack Bradshaw** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:12 am

Denny wrote:
GaryKelly wrote:Therefore good players are more 'responsive' than newbies, therefore good players are sports cars!
So I'm a pickup?

Boy! That sure looks like a one-octane B-flat to me!

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:19 am

Jack Bradshaw wrote:Boy! That sure looks like a one-octane B-flat to me!

it has its drawbacks...

great bottom end though!

Chiffed · Post by **Chiffed** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:50 am

This is me, playing any flute![/url]

Jack Bradshaw · Post by **Jack Bradshaw** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:03 pm

THE ULTIMATE "GEEZER"

Ex-British, valves gone, and complete with rubber bands!

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:12 pm

it can always get worse...

Gabriel · Post by **Gabriel** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:30 pm

and worse.

Chiffed · Post by **Chiffed** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:55 pm

Is that a Chatterham 7? I once had a bass clarinet that was like a Lotus 7 that a buddy used to own: low to the ground, badly aligned, leaky, dicey in the low-end, and unforgiving to operator error.

Matt_Paris · Post by **Matt_Paris** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:15 am

Or even worse...

(Probably some kind of very large bore Pratten.)

Terry McGee · Post by **Terry McGee** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:14 am

Chiffed wrote:

This is me, playing any flute![/url]

Anyone who has seen Cathal McConnel's flute close up will instantly recognise this image.

Terry