Instead of calling eachother names, just go ahead and post your individual versions of the truth about what has gone on. At that point, those points can be discussed, proven and disproven and the truth will, hopefully, eventually come out.
While I'd love to see this happen, I've no faith at all that it can, nor do I have the ability to spend as much time policing the forums as I've spent today.
Discussion on the issue of Phil's story and Loren's secrets has <i>ended</i>.
If Phil and Loren and Colin and Bernard and everyone else involved want to straighten out the story on this, I would recommend using
On 2002-01-23 15:22, Loren wrote:
Tell you what, why don't we have a poll? If the majority of folks here would rather not hear the things I have to share (both good and bad), I'll be happy to stop wasting my time posting.
I like reading your comments on whistles, both good and bad. Your long post telling us about your knowledge of whistles shows that you lose credibility when you post things that come across as attacks on others on the board. Maybe there is a way that you could help us with your insights without such attacks.
I appologize if you found my post inflamatory rich. Just to make things clear and in my own defense, sinct the post is not there, I would just like to point out that I did no name calling, and what I said could be verified from looking through old posts on c&f
Well, I hate to see all of this. The only comfort is that, as others have pointed out, even with this current dispute, the board is more civilized than most and really doesn't require very much moderation. (Today would be an exception, I suppose.)
This issue comes up from time to time and I really respect the fundamental problem which, at least in my mind, is the extent to which this kind of forum ought to be governed. Historically, I have really only had two principles that were important to me. The first was that no one would exploit board participants with unwelcome commercial / self-promotional posts. As you may recall, I posted some guidelines about this and, to my eyes, it really has gotten much better. (I think I would like to say this: Some of the most respected people who are in some kind of whistle-related business NEVER post anything here that could be seen as promoting their businesses. I think that helps them maintain people's respect.)
I still feel pretty strongly that we have to govern the commercial use of the board. Surely no one really disagrees with this--the only disagreement is what is appropriate and what's not. Even Phil, who is obviously passionate about the "free speech" issue, would surely agree that if someone posted SPAM here about refinancing your mortgage or about hot, wild, Asian teens, or, for that matter, if someone posted dozens of messages a day offering whistle deals and making outrageous and unfounded claims of superiority--- that would need to be stopped. We all know that's true. On the other hand, I think the vast majority of board members really don't object to someone popping up and saying, you know, I've got a used whistle for sale or I have so-and-so available in my shop--that kind of thing.
So the problem becomes how to find a good place in between and, frankly, I think we've really found a decent compromise. People will slip up occasionally and go overboard and, honestly, I think we'd be better off if everyone tried to be fairly forgiving of that. Overall, I'd have to say that I can't think of a good reason to make any changes in what we are doing in the Commercialism Police Bureau.
The second principle is trickier and it is my thing about civility. I admit to having "issues" here. As many of you will be sick of hearing, I have used this analogy, perhaps inappriately: If the board can be thought of as my home with invited guests, I would not allow one guest to, if I may be blunt, bitch-slap anyone else. I'd ask them to stop and/or leave. I would not ask someone to leave for expressing an opinion. I would react to someone being abusive or rude.
There are a couple of problems with this. At least. One is that maybe it is no longer fair to think of it as "my home." Maybe that just doesn't make sense anymore. (It's closer to being rich's home anyway. Rich works 10 times harder on the board that I do and he is responsible for where it is housed and so on). Maybe I am just being overly possessive, particularly considering I don't really have the time to spend on the board that I'd like. This thread, for example, grew to three pages before I had a chance to read it. (I've got this job thing which interferes with my career as the Undisputed). I have a real conflict in my head between the desire to have a pretty laid-back, free-speech thing going and my, uh, paternalistic desire to have a no-abuse zone.
And then, of course, is the problem which is all to evident on this thread, that one person's abuse is another person's directness/candor/honesty. Truthfully, I really do THINK I know the difference. But there is a wide range of opinion and I just don't think it can be resolved. At least not to everyone's satisfaction.
Here's my request, could we try to turn this discussion into some concrete proposals for change--specifically on the "civility" issue? What would you like to see? I'd really enjoy constructive proposals.
Tell us something.: I used to play pipes about 20 years ago and suddenly abducted by aliens. Not sure why... but it's 2022 and I'm mysteriously baack...
Good post Dale.
Hot, wild, Asian teens? you wouldn't happen to have that URL handy, would ya ??
Is there a list or standardized questionaire form for whistle reviews? If not, this could be filed by Maker, model, key, features (both + or - ), etc.
This might make it easier to compare whistles side-by-side without flavor of personal preference. (for example rating volume 1-10 or chiff factor 1-5 instead of 'It played well but I would have preffered less chiff') This could be of benefit to any level of player.
I'd say for all of us to do something very simple. That is to keep our mouths shut as far as posting something that could cause trouble, and email you or Rich so it can be handled by the board administrators.
If when reading a thread, and one finds something that could be considered rude, mean, abusive, inflammatory, etc. skip over it. If it is a thread that has some replies with one negative comment skip the negative one and reply to the topic of the thread.
If a pattern of rude or abusive behavior (Whether perceived or actual)is troubling a member then that member should contact you or Rich by email. Don't ever do it by a thread or post. HOW and IF you and Rich deal with it is entirely up to you and Rich.
I'm certain if I did something to get enough complaints from other members, if I would not recognize that this is not a forum for my personal pontification, if I would not adhere to policy, then I would be banned.
In my experience from corporate to personal life, strife can usually be traced back to one individual who incites things. Maybe that type of individual would be great to have on one's side if we were fighting a revolution, but this is just a message board for whistlers.
I was originally attracted to Chiff & Fipple stuff because of Dale's lighthearted approach to things. I joined the message board because it was fun. I deal with enough personal problems with health and other issues, as well as do many other members, to be bothered with arguing.
I read mostly about art on the Internet. I don't chat in IRC channels anymore, I don't participate in the various text based communities, and I only participate in this message board. Why? Because It mainly is positive. It makes me feel good.
So here is something concrete:
If you read something that chiffs your fipple ignore it or tell Rich or Dale.
If someone insists on attacking you (Whether it be perceived or actual) tell Rich or Dale.
If you can't keep your mouth shut about something or someone spare the rest of us and do it by personal email with the person bugging you.
Don't be a self-appointed message board constable. Without the support of the government you are a vigilante.
Well put, Cody. As you've covered the subject most comprehensively I don't have much to add, except that in my experience, the large majority of this community ALREADY adheres to common-sense principles of civility; it's usually only a few individuals who incite discord. If an individual exhibits the propensity to doing this repeatedly, and especially after being warned of their inappropriate behavior, then that person should be made an example of and ejected from the board, either temporarily or permanently.
I have a real conflict in my head between the desire to have a pretty laid-back, free-speech thing going and my, uh, paternalistic desire to have a no-abuse zone.
Well this messageboard, IMHO, has kept a pretty even keel with this. I think that this is what has drawn such good company and the generally warm community feel.
To temper Cody's thoughts: Too many times in my life I have demonstrated that my mouth can indeed accomodate a size 12 D Unfortunately I fear I will continue to occasionaly show how good at it I am. If I caused offense with a post I would not want the injured party to either try to ignore it (which would perhaps create festering animosity)or complain to Dale and/or Rich. I would want to know of it from the person that took offense so that I could try to make amends. That I will happily do on the board itself. If I offend somebody publicly I feel I should apologize publicly as well. But hey, thats just me.
Cheers,
David
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Feadan on 2002-01-23 23:52 ]</font>
If we didn't all have different opinions on many subjects, then this forum would be quite boring. The problems arise with the way that some people seem to handle those differences. I have no objection whatever to a spirited discussion, so long as it remains civil, but just as soon as civility lapses, so does the exchange of useful information and there is no longer any good purpose served in continuing such a thread.
In the last few days we have seen the line crossed, gratuitously, between useful discussion and calumny. For someone to suggest, in effect, that a correspondent may have behaved dishonorably but not to give particulars, to goad someone into a state of rage by this means when he is not permitted to defend himself in the same forum, is base and low. In my opinion it should not be tolerated.
If, however, the former is allowed to post his innuendo -- and it remains in this thread, I just checked -- then the latter should, as a matter of integrity, be allowed to defend himself.
I think the board says or said: 'Abusive
and/or harassing messages will not
be tolerated.' I think we should
add nasty messages, messages that
are personally taking a swipe at
someone.
I think, Dale, that you
and Rich know Really Uncivil when
you see it. So if you will delete
such messages, that would help; and
frankly Raymond's advice about
banishing message senders who do
this repeatedly is becoming
attractive. Life is tough, much
to be angry about,
but this board just isn't a
productive place to unleash one's
pent up anger--and the consequences
are unpleasant for many people.
We've danced this particular dance
quite a few times now.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jim stone on 2002-01-24 01:07 ]</font>
Tell us something.: You just slip out the back, Jack Make a new plan, Stan You don't need to be coy, Roy Just get yourself free Hop on the bus, Gus You don't need to discuss much Just drop off the key, Lee And get yourself free
Oddly enough, I agree with much of what has been said since Dale's post, and I believe the time has come for me to move on.
While I don't agree with Jim's comment about pent-up anger (assuming he's referring to me), because that is not my motivation, it is becoming clear that I have a very low tolerance for certain things that happen here. I can't stand by and watch quietly as things go down, much as I've tried at times. And, since many of the most vocal people seem to agree that I'm making the message board an uncomfortable place, I shouldn't inflict that on the majority.
I do wonder in this case however, just how many people saw all the posts in question befre deciding that I'm in the wrong - particularly my early posts that were deleted, while Phil's were allowed to stand. It seems to me that my first comment was relatively mild, and the other party was the one to go off insulting me in a rage, to which I responded in kind.
Oh well, at any rate the fact remains that as I look back over the last year, my involvment has been the key catalyst in the most volatile and disturbing (for some people) threads. I can't deny this. I also can't say that I have any desire to change the way I do or say things, because I don't and I won't.
The message board has changed so much over the last two and a half years, virtually all of the "original" members are gone and perhaps the constant influx of new people asking the same questions over and over again (without checking the archives, or even the last few current pages) has burnt me out. Perhaps it's just the few certian people who insist on seeing how far they can cross "the line" without getting busted by Dale or Rich that I react to.
Regardless, the message board has become significantly less fun for me, and clearly my presence is making it less fun for others. Best then that I take a break, and in doing so give others one as well.
Let me be clear that I make no apologies here, for I've not done or said anything I'm ashamed of. However, for the sake of Dale, Rich, myself, and everyone who's had enough already - I'm heading out.
I knew this would be the result of the whole discussion when I first saw Phil's original posting (no replies up to then). I do indeed feel that Phil regularly steps over the commercial borders this community has set and I do feel uncomfortable with his mingling of business and family matters. On the other hand Loren hardly ever misses a chance to jump on someone bringing up a controversial opinion.
I'd hate to see either Loren or Phil go, as it is people like them who keep discussions going and raise questions which would otherwise remain unanswered. For me, who doesn't know Loren as a person, his second post on this thread sounded righteous and slightly arrogant. But in the 2+ years or so I have followed this board I have benefited quite a lot from Loren's posts and had a lot of fun with them. His one-year or so absence after a similar incident did not go unnoticed. I would not want a love-and-peace-for-all message board. So, people, brace yourself, have a Cup of Tea and keep on posting. Just my 0.5c
Christian
