Pay up front or pay on receipt, is there the right way?

[O'Briant]

Lars, I like the idea of the "trusted seller" list -- the positive side of the subject of this post. Until we get there, I've had really great customer service with lots of makers -- stand outs include Misha (on the rare event of returning an MK low D), Hans Bracker, and Jerry Freeman -- I know Jerry would probably call himself a "tweaker," but he's probably somewhere in between (e.g., bodies for Gen A and Gen G, etc.). These guys stand out not only for great whistles but great follow-through. On this point, I'm an unapologetic shill for Jerry--I've purchased several whistles from him for myself and others over the years, and have had nothing but pleasant, prompt interactions with him, including free repair work on one whistle and updates to a couple of others. I think it's fair to require makers to promptly follow through on their commitments, but it's another level of commitment for a maker (or tweaker) to commit to instrument support over the life of that instrument, and those folks deserve the praise they get.

[ggunner]

I had a similar experience buying a whistle from Glenn Schultz. Glenn was very reputable and his whistles were and are fantastic. My only regret is that I never took the time to get to know Glenn personally. I ran into him a couple of times at the weekly CCE lessons in the Detroit area, but the 2 hour 45 minute drive each way got to be a little much on a work night. I strayed from the music for a number of years while raising a family, and Glenn was gone by the time I returned to the whistle.

[ggunner]

I, too, like the idea of a trusted seller list.

[Ben Steen]

I'm wondering if this line of discussion is beginning to fulfill it's own dormant intent ~ giving a voice to frustration.
The trusted sellers list isn't a bad concept; there's rarely a lack of good ideas. But why shouldn't this good idea also be comprehensive?
If the intent is to truly evaluate whistle makers the list could (should?) include characteristics of the maker & also the whistle ~ to say the least.

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

I'm wondering if this line of discussion is beginning to fulfill it's own dormant intent ~ giving a voice to frustration.
The trusted sellers list isn't a bad concept; there's rarely a lack of good ideas. But why shouldn't this good idea also be comprehensive?
If the intent is to truly evaluate whistle makers the list could (should?) include characteristics of the maker & also the whistle ~ to say the least.

Only problem with that is, that you can only be objective about:
* communication with seller
* Fairness of price / postage
* Deal executed within a reasonable time frame

As an example i recently sold a Overton/Goldie soprano D i never really warmed up to. The buyer liked it very much..
Now, if i were to review this whistle it wouldn't score high, but it's undoubtedly a good instrument from a skilled maker (i have a Overton Goldie C which is my favorite C whistle)
I was a member of a mobile phone forum where they had a trusted sellers list, as far as i remember they stated # of deals, buyer/seller and somewhere along the lines of 'excellent' (went the extra mile in the deal)
Good (no problems, deal went through as expected) and the dreaded 'bad' (unreasonable wait time, very (unnecessarily) expensive postage, item not as described etc.
worked a charm as far as i could tell. Also had the effect (on me) that i tried to go the extra mile

[Mr.Gumby]

Only problem with that is, that you can only be objective about:
* communication with seller
* Fairness of price / postage
* Deal executed within a reasonable time frame

These are probably all items that would I would think of a inherently subjective.

Communication with seller: I bought a Killarney D a while ago. Never heard from them after I made the payment on their webpage BUT the postman handed me the whistle the next day. Do I rate the maker negatively for not communicating in that instance? I know I wouldn't.

Fairness of price. I consider a great many whistles ridiculously overpriced where many on this forum would consider them, 'cheaper than a cello'. How subjective can you get? I also once bought a whistle from a maker in the US who, typically afraid of all things foreign perhaps, insisted on sending by courier (FedEx I believe). Instead of the $5 1st class postage rate going at the time I paid for the the courier and their extortionate standard 'customs clearing' charge all in all amounting to nearly $40. The delivery also took longer than standard post would have taken. Fair price? It certainly deterred me from buying from same maker again.

Reasonable time frame. Some have waiting lists, some have an instrument ready and will post same day or the next. What's reasonable? A maker offered to make me a set of pipes two years ago when I was thinking aloud about getting a different key. Took nearly a year (May, instead of the promised 'late autumn' ). Reasonable? I did overtake twenty or more years of waiting list in the process. Sam Murray quoted me six weeks for a flute. He went 30% over. Should I join the chorus?

[narrowdog]

I know all this is a little off topic but discussion is always good.

A trusted sellers list I feel is as I have found over the last few months to subjective as is
rating whistles.
All of the makers we deal with do a fabulous job and you get the whistle pretty much when you
expect it, I could make a list of 20 or 30 makers and all would be fine so we have a list of makers.
Yes we get very rarely one who falls on hard times or family problems and can't honour the order,
should we condemn them to the Black list, no I don't think so, 3 months, 6 months down the line
they get themselves sorted honour the orders and carry on making good whistles.
I named him here because I don't think I'm the only one and it's been going on for up to a year.
If my whistle from J-P Le Meur was to arrive tomorrow I would say thank you very much, let every one know
and go play the thing.
No need for lists.

As for rating, we have reviews here from time to time and we all know how they vary.
The recent Cheiftain V4 tour is a good example, some loved it, some not quite so much,
so it gets 3 1/2 stars on average, is that a help? Maybe but you'll only know when you've played it.
I am the recipient of Lars' Goldie high D, thanks Lars
how would I rate Colin's whistle? Probably 5 Stars, perfect for the job it does.
how would Lars have rated Colin's whistle when he didn't get on with it? 2 Stars.
It would probably only work if ratings were quantified, then it gets complicated and you might as well just review the thing.

My thoughts this morning and cross posted with Mr Gumby I think.

[AvienMael]

I for one, would agree that lists would be too subjective. However, I am not sure that the intent of a "seller's list" is the same thing as rating a particular whistle - because it isn't... nor should it be. Folks here have always felt comfortable contenting themselves (and others) with reviews of particular whistles. I see no reason why anyone should feel uncomfortable with expressing their experiences in terms of the transactions themselves, whether they are good, bad or otherwise. Naturally, one would hope that in expressing a negative experience, the authors could contain their comments to the actual facts, and use reasonable judgement before posting anything negative at all.

I also think this particular situation was handled tastefully, and serves as a good example of what I have just expressed.

Remember, one of the reasons most makers give such great customer service is that they are well aware that members of the communities they serve do talk to each other, and their reputations are important to them (as they should be). Whether I, or anyone else were to relate a bad buying experience to someone else, be it in person, via electronic or written communication, or through this forum is irrelevant. Eventually, the word gets around...

Let's also be realistic about this - there is no one to "police" makers who fail to deliver the goods after accepting someone's money, and a list won't prevent that from happening. I immediately began drawing parallels to eBay's feedback system as I was reading through some of the posts. Today, theirs is a system with oversight, in which sellers are held accountable to certain standards, whereas it used to be more of a customer controlled environment. It evolved to what it is today because it didn't work.

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

Well, my 'trusted seller' list was meant more between members. I always feel a little weary when trusting a hitherto unknown member with my money, and i for one would have appreciated such a list in the beginning here.
That said i haven't had any problem at all with members of this forum, which makes me happy!

[kkrell]

I'm not a maker, but I'll volunteer to be on the Trusted Seller list.

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

Until such a list is created i will be delighted to answer in PM any and all questions about sellers/buyers
A task i happily take upon me since the members here (i have dealt with) are all genuine honest people

[kokopelli]

FWIW another forum I am a member of for a different hobby has a fairly successful method of achieving this. Each time a sale is made in the classified section of that forum, those members have the option to leave short feedback on the buyer/seller depending on which side of the deal they were on. It's simply a +1 or -1 with a field for a short note. This is aggregated with all the other buyer/seller feedback for that member and the score is listed in their member info.

I know a system like this would be a lot of work to implement and may not be supported by our current system. It's something that works well elsewhere though and may inspire something here.

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

FWIW another forum I am a member of for a different hobby has a fairly successful method of achieving this. Each time a sale is made in the classified section of that forum, those members have the option to leave short feedback on the buyer/seller depending on which side of the deal they were on. It's simply a +1 or -1 with a field for a short note. This is aggregated with all the other buyer/seller feedback for that member and the score is listed in their member info.

I know a system like this would be a lot of work to implement and may not be supported by our current system. It's something that works well elsewhere though and may inspire something here.

That is, as far as i remember exactly how it was set up/run at Esato forum, it worked well imo, don't know how much extra work it ment though.

[ickabod]

Just thought I would chime in on the +1 -1 system suggested. It does sound like it has merit..

However, what is to keep a nefarious whistle maker or his/her supporters from undeservingly handing out a bunch of -1s to the competition based on nothing but capitalistic greed to crush the competition?

Just FYI,

The above statement is purely hypothetical.. I'm not saying that the whistle makers are not to be trusted. I'm just simply trying to ask how can you really be sure the integrity of data will be accurate.

There are many hypotheticals... A whistle maker wants to see his/her sales rise so he creates phony accounts and give himself a +1. Perhaps someone decides everytime they get a -1 they will offset it by giving themselves a +1..

Or. perhaps someone had a terrible experience with a brand x whistle (X being unknown) so in order to seek revenge they seek attack the whistle maker by exploiting the system to create many accounts for this purpose.. etc..

[Ben Steen]

Speaking of mobile phones mine works (I can make phone calls), it was inexpensive & it's as indestructible as most others (assuming you're not going SCUBA diving w/it).

But, back on topic . . . unless you're wanting to explore the full realm of possibilities across a virtual reality; how difficult can it be to find a good D whistle? How many whistles does one person need? etc.?