Wanted: Basic definition of Irish trad on the whistle.

[Nanohedron]

I haven't gotten to the point of listening a tune to learn to play it, other than the CD that came with the Bill Ochs book. There are some tunes that seem to get stuck in my head for a while after hearing them though.

That's exactly the process. They get into your head like that, even whether you may have intended it or not. There are tunes I've learned passively, without actually intending to do so. Hear something enough times, and *presto*, it'll be there. Maybe not "perfect" (whatever you may mean by that), but it'll be there. Memory is what you rely on to get the basic tune under your fingers. After that comes follow-up and scrutiny of the finer points.

[Mr Ed]

About the only things that get into my head and stay for any length of time are melodies. Finely, something about my memory that I can rely on!

[Infernaltootler]

To me there are a few elements which you can point to that makes a tune sound traditionally played.
And when you hear someone come from English to Irish it absolutely screams at you.

There would probably be a predominance of legato playing - in one breath, with little tonguing except to eccentuate a note
You can see the finger pads covering the holes, not the finger tips
Each tune has a personality only learned by listening, so that you understand phrasing - a simple example might be from Haste to the Wedding where there is a clear stop between two notes in the B part.
The amount of fairly unique ornamentation is considerable and lots of it requires real study, a prime example is the Roll on long held notes which needs tender loving care to reach competance. You can't play Irish music fluently without it.

Of course my Irish friend just rolls her eyes when any discussion gets started like this. All she wants to do is just get on and play, don't disect it.

I'm going to stand back now and I'm ready for total contradiction, because that is also part of everything.

[NicoMoreno]

Well yes, I can point to one person as an exception for your first two points (Mary Bergin) and another for your comment about rolls (Micho Russel). Many more exceptions of course. In fact, I can only think of one well-known irish musician who didn't tongue on the whistle (at least not much - the only one who I think would be described by your first line): Seamus Ennis.

[Mr.Gumby]

In fact, I can only think of one well-known irish musician who didn't tongue on the whistle (at least not much - the only one who I think would be described by your first line): Seamus Ennis.

That's a sort of tricky thing though, Ennis liked long legato phrases. I could think of a few who may give the impression of using an extend of tonguing when articulating their notes but Tommy Martin here once said here that Donncha O Briain, who taught Tommy, only ever used glottal stops and Bríd O Donohue once said to me she never uses tonguing in her playing. I think in either case that would easy to mistakenly think otherwise if you listen to their music casually. And that's just two examples.

[NicoMoreno]

True, but for the most part I would lump glottal stops and tonguing together. The effect is similar, and in some cases it's very hard to tell the difference (if impossible). That's the sort of difference I'd get into with someone who has gotten a little further into the music.

[benhall.1]

I think the point about tonguing and whistling, in relation to the OP, is that there are plenty of people who use a huge amount of tonguing. And plenty who don't. So that can't be one of the defining characteristics.

[Mr.Gumby]

Maybe have a look at :

Bro Steve's Transcription page


for a number of examples of different styles?

[Peter Duggan]

Maybe have a look at :

Bro Steve's Transcription page


for a number of examples of different styles?

Very nice, Peter (yes, it's the first time I've seen those)!

[pancelticpiper]

Trying to define "what is traditional Irish music" is sort of like trying to define "what is art?"

But some experts have had a go at it.

Breandan Breathnach writes in Folk Music and Dances of Ireland:

...folk music and song are the product of the folk and, accordingly, anonymous, and it is this sense that the term "folk music" is used in this handbook...

Folk music is a heritage which is passed on from one age to the next- hence the term 'traditional', which is usually applied to it in Ireland.

Traditional music, instrumental and vocal, is a system of music in its own right. It has its own rules, and by these it must be judged. Some of its basic rules will be set down here...

(He goes on to discuss these in detail)

A tune is played not bar by bar but by the phrase, which very seldom is contained exactly between bar lines.

Intensity, the varying loudness and softness of sound, is not a feature of traditional music... the use of dynamics betrays the non-native.

The two basic elements of phrasing, accent and length, can be acquired only by ear. There is only one way of becoming a traditional player, and that is by listening to genuine material performed in a traditional manner.

[pancelticpiper]

And Tomas O Canainn writes in Traditional Music in Ireland

It is difficult to define and analyse the basic elements of traditional music in Ireland. Clearly the adjective traditional implies that something in the music is being passed from one generation of performers to the next. Most of them are aware of the traditional process to some extent, and of their place in it, but would find it difficult to define what exactly they mean by traditional. Nevertheless, without any knowledge of the history of a piece of music they are able to describe it as either traditional or not on a first hearing. This implies that the music has certain features of melody, rhythm, style, structure, or, perhaps even of phrasing which put it, for them, into the traditional category. Yet one must face the fact that some of the best-known pieces in the traditional musician's repertoire are of fairly recent origin. They are accepted because they conform in some way to the performer's concept of what is traditional.

[maki]

Maybe have a look at :

Bro Steve's Transcription page


for a number of examples of different styles?

Thats a favorite internet destination of mine.
Great examples of vastly different tradional styles.
Even better for a n00by like me are the notes that accompany each piece.

[Mr Ed]

A tune is played not bar by bar but by the phrase, which very seldom is contained exactly between bar lines.

Intensity, the varying loudness and softness of sound, is not a feature of traditional music... the use of dynamics betrays the non-native.

The two basic elements of phrasing, accent and length, can be acquired only by ear. There is only one way of becoming a traditional player, and that is by listening to genuine material performed in a traditional manner.

At least one part of what Bill Ochs says is important in his tutorial is mentioned there: phrasing. The other being rhythm, which should go without saying.

Brother Steve's transcription page is very interesting too. What really stood out to me was how whistlers take a tune and sometimes change the phrasing to make it their own, like making a note an octave higher or lower, or even just changing a note that leads into the next phrase.

And acquiring by ear:
Thankfully I don't rely on sheet music totally when using the tutorial and have always considered it as a guide to get you in the general area. Listening to Bill Ochs play the tunes (and comparing with others when I can) to get the feel for it is preferred. So many nuances can't be shown with the notation. Learned that one when checking out transcriptions of blues bass lines. The paper can't show the feel.

So much to learn.

[ytliek]

Trying to define "what is traditional Irish music" is sort of like trying to define "what is art?"

But some experts have had a go at it.

The two basic elements of phrasing, accent and length, can be acquired only by ear. There is only one way of becoming a traditional player, and that is by listening to genuine material performed in a traditional manner.

I don't know about ITM "basic definition" for the whistle, or perhaps its the "art" of non-definition, however, here is another go at it:
http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/pdfdownloads/
Go to PDF Downloads and scroll down to leaflet "What Is Irish Traditional Music?" and have a go at it yourself
They do say that the leaflet wasn't meant as authoritative, just a description, but has been taken for definition.
There is some good browsing around in there anyway.

And, I agree with the last statement above, about "listening" to the reel deal!

[cboody]

Interesting. That definition (except perhaps for the final three bullet points) could be applied to any European based tradition.

Remember the classic definition of "jazz:" If you have to ask you'll never know....