Ornamentation questions

[highland-piper]

Remember they aren't grace notes, i.e. the cut occurs on the beat not before the beat like a grace note.

I may well be mistaken, but my understanding is that grace notes (whether acciaccaturas or appoggiaturas, and also more complex forms) are usually played on the beat, not before it, because they introduce and resolve a dissonance in the melody.

In classical music, a gracenote takes time away from the note that follows it -- the only way that can happen is if it starts on the beat. As you say, it creates and resolves a dissonance.

I've spent a bit of time trying to understand the details of the timing of embellishments in Scottish pipe music, and it's not easy to say exactly what happens. I suspect some of the same thing happens in ITM. If you really analyze what's going on you'll probably find that the exact placement of different embellishments varies by the performer, and also by the tune. Sometimes a bit of a delay for musical effect. Sometimes a substantial change from what "theory" would predict.

We all understand that intuitively though -- it's the difference between what generic music notation software produces when it plays back a score and what a musician produces.

Not that it matters, but if you google [ tin whistle ornament strike ] you find that a lot of people use the term, including Grey Larsen.

[Mr.Gumby]

Not that it matters, but if you google [ tin whistle ornament strike ] you find that a lot of people use the term, including Grey Larsen.

I know there are a lot of people using that term. The point I made was that terminology isn't standard and that's why I said:

There's just not a lot of standardisation of terminology. For example, I have yet to hear anyone in Ireland use 'strike' as a term.

Grey Larsen has introduced a few terms and approaches of his own, some of it quite alien to the commonly used terminology as I know it Again, the point is: there's no universally agreed standard terminology. I can perfectly understand 'strike' but none of the players I interact with in real life uses the term and I wouldn't actively use it either. Along the same lines the use of 'grace note' is something I have been familiar with in the context of Irish music well over thirty years without ever confusing what it describes with anything from the classical music world.
I also know people who learned forty years ago saying that they never used 'cut' or 'grace' but knew those as 'birls' and 'roll' wasn't a term used by anyone they knew at the time.

[benhall.1]

Wikipedia is not gospel, but this article gives a very good description of the normal practice surrounding both appogiaturas and acciacaturas in classical music.

As I say, it depends. Most definitely not always on the beat.

But that doesn't have much to do with trad. Just trying to preserve at least a degree of accuracy.

[killthemessenger]

Wikipedia is not gospel, but this article gives a very good description of the normal practice surrounding both appogiaturas and acciacaturas in classical music.

As I say, it depends. Most definitely not always on the beat.

But that doesn't have much to do with trad. Just trying to preserve at least a degree of accuracy.

True - I'm more familiar in my own playing with baroque practice, where ornaments (not just gracenotes) generally fall on the beat.

Cuts and taps feel more like very fast mordents to me, although I'm sure some would disagree.

[cboody]

We seem to be overlooking the essential (usual) difference between "classical" (i.e. baroque usually) ornamentation and "irish" ornamentation. Classic (just going with the easiest term to use, no music period implied) ornamentation is almost always made up of notes where the pitch of each note is intended to be heard. Most "Irish" ornamentation is made up of notes played so rapidly that you hear a "pop" or a "click" or some such thing and not really the note itself. Some tutorial materials will say (or at least imply) that if you can hear the pitch of a cut or tap (or strike if you will) you probably played it too slowly. That is an important distinction and a basic difference between the sound of traditional players (and those who aspire to that) and "classical" players.

For learning, take a good jig with repeated notes and use cuts or taps (if possible) each time a note is repeated. The first, third, and fourth sections of "Lark in the Morning" are ideal for this. Lot of different pitches to cut or strike and ample opportunity to decide which fingers you are going to use to make the ornament and exercise them. I'm no expert on playing "Irish" ornamentation, but I have found that working Lark in the Morning has made it easy for me to transfer that skill to other tunes, and as provided a good foundation for long and short rolls too.

Good Luck to the OP

[bradhurley]

For learning, take a good jig with repeated notes and use cuts or taps (if possible) each time a note is repeated.

This is indeed a good approach for learning, but in actual playing you can also use tonguing and no ornamentation to separate repeated notes. There's a mythology in whistle playing that you're supposed to separate two repeating notes only by using finger ornamentation; I think the argument is that the whistle was historically used as a first instrument for people who wanted to learn the pipes, and you can't separate repeated notes on the pipes without using finger ornamentation. But that depends on which pipes you're talking about. If you're talking about uilleann pipes, it is indeed possible (and common practice) to separate two repeating notes by stopping the chanter between each note: no grace note/cut/whatever you want to call it. It sounds quite similar to tonguing or glottal-stopping on the whistle. You can do it both ways (grace notes or taps to separate notes, or cleanly separating the notes by inserting stops between each note, no ornamentation), and I think most pipers, whistle players, and flute players would employ both techniques based on the particular tune and the rhythmic effect they're after. For example in the Lark in the Morning I do use cuts to separate the repeated notes in the first and third parts, but use tonguing and no ornamentation to separate the repeated d's in the fourth part.

[pancelticpiper]

1. When is a good time to start adding ornamentation? I'm sure everyone has a different method but should I really learn a tune and then add ornamentation? Learn as I go? Just wait?

2. Should I just keep playing tunes and concentrate more on speed?

These questions imply that "ornamentation" in Irish wind-instrument playing is akin to "ornamentation" as it's used in "legit" playing (classical/pop/jazz) that is, something that's not part of the melody, something superfluous, that's added for decorative effect.

There's very little of that in traditional Irish playing.

Cuts and pats and the rolls formed from them are NOT ornaments: they are not superfluous to the melody. They are part-and-parcel of the traditional style.

They're articulations, a way to seperate notes instead of using the tongue.

Take a basic beginners' tune, The Kesh Jig. How can it be played without cuts, pats, and rolls and still sound like a traditional whistle/flute/pipe tune? Take all the finger articulation out and it sounds like somebody playing Irish tunes on a recorder using recorder style.

Both uilleann pipe and Scottish Highland pipe teachers recognise the necessity of learning various digital articulations and they're taught from the beginning as integral parts of the tunes.

It's creating an artifice, to strip the articulations from Irish tunes and play them the way they would be played on recorder, accordion, etc.

Anyhow that's my rant!

I did a video on YouTube showing various approaches to playing the basic beginners' tune Sean Bui. You'll see that the cuts, pats, and rolls are not only integral to the tune but also to the variations.

Check it out! Richard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyj5LMH6aOI

[highland-piper]

I know there are a lot of people using that term. The point I made was that terminology isn't standard and that's why I said:

I thought your point was perfectly clear -- it just made me wonder if I was the only person using the word "strike" wrt whistle or if I might have gotten it someplace else besides Scottish piping.

[R Small]

I like to use the term "tap" as in "cuts and taps". I've also heard or seen in print: pat, tip, hit, strike, and maybe a few others.

[StevieJ]

These questions imply that "ornamentation" in Irish wind-instrument playing is akin to "ornamentation" as it's used in "legit" playing (classical/pop/jazz) that is, something that's not part of the melody, something superfluous, that's added for decorative effect.

I basically agree and in fact wrote a very similar sentence on Bro. Steve a long time ago. I think you overstate the case somewhat in your subsequent remarks though.

How would you account for the fact that some trad players with impeccable credentials use far more of these devices than others with equally impeccable credentials, other than by saying that they are used for effect?

I've heard a few whistle players who don't use rolls at all, for example, and if they don't sound like Willie Clancy, Mary Bergin, or Sean Potts, they still play lovely and completely authentic sounding music.

Yes, in a sense stripping out all these devices would be creating an artifice. But you could also say it's a way of exploring different approaches, perhaps even of innovating. I just tried to play the Kesh without any finger ornamentation, using only tonguing and the breath to make the tune work. I rather liked the result and to my ear it was nothing like what a recorder player would produce. (It was quite a challenge to stop every little cut and lift, mind you.) And a while back I recorded a roll-free Morrison's jig to try to show people that there are alternative ways to skin a cat.

[killthemessenger]

It's creating an artifice, to strip the articulations from Irish tunes and play them the way they would be played on recorder, accordion, etc.

Hmmm... your ideology is showing.

But on the other hand: "In science, as in art and in life itself, to be true to nature one must be true to culture."

[Mr.Gumby]

I think it's another hare brained idea to call all ornamentation 'articulation'. Some of it is used to articulate notes but not by far all of it. Again here, terminology is not standardised, 'ornamentation', 'embellishment' and possibly others I can't think of right now are part of the descriptors used. Some covering a wider field, some a narrower. I

think there's a broader palette, beyond mere' articulation' at the player's disposal when playing Irish music. As Steve says above, it can be perfectly acceptable and aesthetically rewarding to use a very sparse set but some really great whistleplayers players like Willie Clancy or Séan McKiernan can dress up a tune, make it talk if you like, with a wide variety of 'things', going well beyond merely articulating the notes.

[JTC111]

I think it's another hare brained idea to call all ornamentation 'articulation'. Some of it is used to articulate notes but not by far all of it. Again here, terminology is not standardised, 'ornamentation', 'embellishment' and possibly others I can't think of right now are part of the descriptors used. Some covering a wider field, some a narrower.

Maybe we need a generic term? I suggest "thingy."

Student: Do I need a thingy there to break up this string of notes.
Teacher: Yes, a thingy there would work very well.

Moral of the story: I thingy; therefore, I am.

[benhall.1]

I have frequently used a whatsit ...

[CelesteGB]

Maybe we need a generic term? I suggest "thingy."

Student: Do I need a thingy there to break up this string of notes.
Teacher: Yes, a thingy there would work very well.

Moral of the story: I thingy; therefore, I am.

Hahaha! I posted this original question because of the exact debate that happened here. I have several books and they all use different terminology and use. Also, I was listening to a clip of Spanish Lady on youtube and someone made a comment that rolls, cuts and crans(?) are supposed to be used instead of tonguing so that got me thinking about all of it. ( nod to the poster who mentioned that this fact can be erroneously applied)

Maybe I'll just stick to putting thingies and whatsits in my tunes Purty-fy it hehe

Celeste