David of the White Rock

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jemtheflute
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by jemtheflute »

Well said, CWM. I'm sorry I even mentioned the blasted thing! Else we might not have had this diversion. FWIW, though, Jiminos, I don't see why you're taking on so - Ben makes clear in his second post he doesn't much care himself, that he is just flagging up the matter. I don't see any personal attack implied, save maybe over the apostrophe!

Ben, my recollection of the article mentioned by Peter Laban is that it debunked the Rory Dall connection as mythical - read it yourself and tell us if I recall aright.

Pammy, I think you have adequate stuff on Llwyn Onn/The Ash Grove now? DrPhill got in there while I was at work. If you'd prefer dots to ABC (though you can find out easily how to turn ABC into dots) let me know and I'll post an image of them as I did for DyGW.

Back on DyGW, I looked it up on The Fiddler's Companion and that says the parts repeat, which I don't think makes sense in setting them to the lyrics, nor to my mind's ear memory of how I have ever heard the tune, but I haven't been to any of the available recordings to check that out. However, I'm pretty sure that when I played it to accompany a singer at my local sesh sometime last year it fitted the words "single" as I would have expected - and she sang it in Welsh. I'm sure if it had been "double" that would have stuck in my mind as clashing with what I expected.

The Fiddler's Companion:
DAFYDD Y GARREG WEN (David of the White Rock). Welsh, Air (3/4 time). A Minor. Standard tuning. AABB. A popular Welsh traditional song, the tune first appears in Jones’s first edition of Musical and Poetical Relicks of the Welsh Bards (1784), a collection of Welsh harp music. The title refers to the 18th century blind harper and composer David Owen—y Garreg Wen, or ‘the White Rock’ was the name of the farm on which he lived near Porthmadog in Caernafonshire, Wales. The tradition of calling one by the first name and the house where he lived was common in Wales at the time, and still is sometimes heard. David was said to have had his harp continually at his side. He died young, at age 29, and, as the story goes, before expiring he asked for his instrument and played this melody, requesting that it be played on a single Welsh harp at his funeral. The words below were written in the 19th century by poet John Ceiriog Hughes:

“Cariwch,” medd Dafydd, “fy nhelyn imi,
Ceisiaf cyn marw roi tôn arni hi.
Codwch fy nwylaw i gyrraedd y tant;
Duw a’ch bendithio fy ngweddw a’m plant!”

Neithiwr me glywais lais angel fel hyn:
‘Dafydd, tyrd adref, a chwarae trwy’r glyn!’
Delyn fy mebyd, ffarwel I dy dant!
Duw a’ch bendithio fy ngweddw a’m plant!”


(Dafydd said, ‘Bring me my harp,
I’ll try to put a tune on it before I die.
Raise my hand to reach the string.
God bless you my widow and my children.

Last night I heard the voice of an angel saying:
‘Dafydd, come home and play through the glen!’
Harp of my childhood, farewell to your music,
God bless you my widow and my children.)

David was the hero of Sir Walter Scott’s poem “The Dying Bard.” Johnson (The Kitchen Musician No. 5: Mostly Irish Airs), 1985 (revised 2000); pg. 18.
X:1
T:Dafydd y Garreg Wen
T:David of the White Rock
M:3/4
L:1/8
R:Air
K:A Minor
Ae dc BA|A2^G2A2|E^G Bd cB|{c/d/}c4B2|A2a2g2|f2 ed e2 |c2 ed cB|c6:|
|:{e/d/}c2 ec gc|d2 cB A^G|AB cA e/d/B/c/|B6|Ac ec’ ba|ed cB c2|B>c A2 ^G2|A6:|
Actually, looking at that and the lyrics carefully, I'm quite sure the repeats in the ABC are wrong.
Last edited by jemtheflute on Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by jiminos »

cwm, i love your sig! positively brilliant.

be well,

jim
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by Ceili_whistle_man »

Cheers jiminos, it's just an everyday Irish saying. :wink:

Hey Jem, don't fret over mentioning 'the blasted thing', it could be worse, you could be one of those seppo tourists with the massive SLR camera and video camera in hand who insist on barging loudly into a session and insist you sing Danny boy. (unaware that not one person is singing and it is a music session) :swear: :lol:
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by benhall.1 »

Now, if we knew what the thing was called before someone who lived in Derry "collected" it in the mid-nineteenth century, it'd be problem solved! :thumbsup:
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by Pammy »

Thank you DrPhill and thank you again Jemtheflute what a hive of information you are

I used to live in Wales and sang both David of The White Rock and The Ash Grove in school. (http://www.newi.ac.uk/buckleyc/welshmid ... /david.htm) I love the songs and the words, they make me cry. (soppy woman)
Well they are both about death and stuff.

I have just looked up the site you gave me, and my husband has just sung me a different set of words to The Ash Grove which I had to shut my ears off to:)

I really should stick to something happier -

Any sugestions anyone?
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by benhall.1 »

I'm sorry for perpetuating the hijack, Pammy. But I've got interested now. :wink: I also apologise for the outrageous cross-post earlier. Goodness knows how that happened ... [I mean the gap between what I thought I was answering and my 'answer'.] :-?

Right. So. I've re-read that article, Jem. It doesn't read to me like it de-bunks the connection with Rory Dall. Rather, it seems to me that it is saying that Mrs Ross didn't know what she was talking about. Which seems fair enough when you consider that, even in the quote from her in that article, she has managed to confuse - as is still done to this day - the two separate people, Irish harper Rory Dall O'Cahan 1570-1650 and the Scottish harper Rory Dall Morison 1656 - 1714.

Did you see in that article you mentioned, Jem, Bunting's transcription of "The Young Man's Dream" (or whatever it was called). It's clearly the same tune - it's just that, as plenty have said over the year, Mrs Ross didn't understnad the 'rubato' in what was being played to her, and transcribed it, wrongly, in common time when it should have been in 3/4.

Phew!

I think I'll go back to thinking about Dafydd Y Garreg Wen and Llwyn Onn. That was what we were talking about, wasn't it?

:-?
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by Pammy »

yep
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by Ceili_whistle_man »

Seppo is Australian slang for American.
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by MTGuru »

Seppo = Septic Tank = Yank.

I assume that Ozzies are actually fond of sewage, otherwise I might think that seppo is, uh, less than flattering. :wink:
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by benhall.1 »

Jem's right - it's played single. It's an air.

Just been looking up about David Owen - poor soul died when he was only 29! Amazing to have achieved so much by that young age that you'd be remembered a couple of centuries later ... correction - a quarter of a millenium ...

Going to look for more on him now ...
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by benhall.1 »

OK. Can't find anything much at all. But my searches have, as often is the case, led to more questions ...

Most sites talking about David Owen, or Dafydd Owain, say that he was also famous for composing Codiad Yr Hedydd, The rising of the Lark. When you try and find out more about that air, you're told firmly, all over the place, that it was written by Elizabeth Grant, a contemporary of Dafydd Owain's. I'm confused ... :-?
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by jemtheflute »

Ah, it's just the routine Welsh self-fragmentation and disputation conspiracy to put outsiders and anyone from "anywhere else" in Wales off the scent. Celtic Mist!

BTW, quick reference back to the backside tune (derriere :D ) (I don't want to re-divert now we're back on tracK!) - Ben, I hadn't re-read the article since I read it best part of a year ago, so I'm sure you're right about what it says.....
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by benhall.1 »

Derriere! Gosh! Who'd have thought it sounded like that? I wish I had your original sense of humour, Jem.

:D :twisted:
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by Geraint »

Shwmae. Just came across this thread. Some more info on Dafydd...

Firstly, the David/Dafydd and Owen/Owain thing. It was common in Wales, especially in the centuries after the Middle Ages, for people to be baptised with English or anglicised names, but to be known by Welsh or Cymricised names, either with different pronunciation or maybe different versions. This still goes on now, to a lesser extant - a man local to me was widely know as 'Dafydd' even though his 'official' name was David, for example. There are also plenty of Johns known as Ianto or Shoni, etc etc.

So, if you look on his gravestone here:

http://flickr.com/photos/roryfrancis/2364640973/

you'll see the Welsh version, which is how he would have been widely known. The full inscription on the grave reads


BEDD
DAVID OWEN
neu
Ddafydd y Garreg Wen.
y Telynor rhagorol
a gladdwyd 1749,
Yn 29 oed.

Swynai'r fron, gwnâi'n llon y llu - a'i ganiad,
Oedd ogoniant Cymru;
Dyma lle cadd ei gladdu,
Heb ail o'i fath, Jubal fu.
E.O.

A rough and clunkily literal translation:

The grave of David Owen
or
Dafydd y Garreg Wen
The outstanding harper
Buried in 1749
His age 29

He enchanted the breast, made the throng happy - and his song
Was the glory of Wales
This is where he was buried
There is no-one else like him, he was Jubal.
E.O.

The verse is a sort-of englyn, or Welsh verse for. It seems that the poet was Elis Owen of Cefn y Meysydd. For those that understand Welsh, have a look here. Even if you don't understand the Language of Heaven you can see a picture of Ynys Cynhaearn church, Dafydd's burial place, c. 1830.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wlsme ... regwen.htm

It's quite common in Wales for local poets to write a verse especially for the departed, or for a well-known verse to be used on the gravestone. There are a few examples on the above website. Incidentally, the 'Dd' in his name on the gravestone isn't a typo, it's a consonantal mutation, one of the thing that can make Welsh nice and awkward. I'll forbear from further grammatical explanation ;-)

Also, you might note the title that the photographer (who I don't know, just found the image on a search) gives the pic: 'Bedd Dafydd y Garreg Wen, Y telynor dall' (The grave of Dafydd y Garreg Wen, the blind harper) The Welsh for blind is 'dall', just as in Irish altough pronunciation differs (I think there are other words for 'blind' in Irish too, can't find my dictionary). Old Ruaridh Dall is mentioned above.

Bryn Terfel's version of the song is lovely.

Not sure who really wrote 'Codiad yr Ehedydd' but there's a story that as Dafydd was returning home with his harp from Hafod y Porth, dawn was breaking and 'a little lark rose above the woods and poured out the joy of the morning'. Dafydd took up his harp and composed 'Codiad yr Ehedydd'.
Last edited by Geraint on Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: David of the White Rock

Post by jemtheflute »

benhall.1 wrote:Derriere! Gosh! Who'd have thought it sounded like that? I wish I had your original sense of humour, Jem.

:D :twisted:
I knew you'd need help understanding, see....... :thumbsup: :D

As for all the stuff on Dafydd Owain (great contribution, Geraint), there's one detail of the story which sticks in the craw a little - the death-bed composition......it seems to be a common bit of hagiography-like detail for quite a lot of tunes/composers, maybe especially harpers. (Like their being blind! Yes, I know that was often historically true and there were good reasons for it.) I kinda wonder - who the hell was at the deathbed writing the tune down or able to recall a quasi-improvised melody after the emotional trauma with note-perfect accuracy? I reckon either these guys wrote the pieces before and chose to air them at their death or left 'em to be played at their funerals, or someone else wrote them after and nabbed some good PR. It is such a recurrent and rather unlikely story I just don't buy it.
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