Ivory on pipes

[misterpatrick]

Not that I plan on getting a set with ivory, but like most of you I assume it's only a matter of time before I stumble on a Coyne set at an estate sale.

So, now that I have this beautiful Coyne/Harrington/Crowley set, how does one go about getting CITES certificates for it?

I'm fine with using horn and antler when it's found wild stuff and kind of like the idea of using found things. Much like Peter found the tusk at a market.

[billh]

I think that Peter's scenario of legally culled ivory would probably make it easier to get a CITES certificate as it would come with documentation.

Neil

Only if the ivory, seller, and purchaser are all within the same national border, if a sale or service took place post-1989.

No matter how 'legal' the ivory, it cannot be re-sold across borders. Pipes made with it cannot be sold across borders, nor can it be used to repair a set of pipes if the repair takes place in a foreign jurisdiction.

You could get a CITES permit for noncommercial border crossings with such a set, but only if it was not part of a post-ban commercial transaction. That is to say, you can get CITES permits for travelling with a set of ivory-mounted pipes purchased pre-ban.

Yes, there are folks out there selling "legal" "pre-ban" ivory on the internet who are intentionally spreading misinformation - it's in their interest to convince international buyers that all is legit. Some even advertise "CITES" permits, but it's bogus.

In reply to misterpatrick, no CITES permits are required for 'bona fide antiques' more than 100 years old; this is easy to prove for Coyne, Kenna, Harrington. Any replacement "ivories" or repair work less than 100 years old should be mammoth or something other than elephant, however.

(I think I'll let the archives handle this topic from now on)

Bill

[Elmek]

I gather from another pipemaker that if antiques tusks, billiard balls are used / reworked then CITES takes it to be 'new' as there is no way of telling its age

Can this be confirmed

John

[billh]

I gather from another pipemaker that if antiques tusks, billiard balls are used / reworked then CITES takes it to be 'new' as there is no way of telling its age

Can this be confirmed

John

Hi John

I think you might be missing the point - the "new"-ness is due to the *work* being new. Age of the ivory does not matter, if it is remanufactured into something new. This is one of the points ivory resellers don't want you to understand.

CITES restrictions apply to cross-border sales of ivory and/or ivory-bearing items - exemptions apply for items over 100 years old with no newer ivory work on them. That's ALL IVORY, doesn't matter whether the ivory was previously acquired before the ban.

You CANNOT get a CITES certificate for commercial transport of "Appendix I" specimens, i.e. sale or importation of a newly bought/sold item with ivory on it. You CAN get a CITES certificate for travelling with ivory-bearing items as personal effects, i.e. not for resale, provided you can show that the ivory was legally acquired before the ban (and hasn't been resold across borders post-ban).

In the case of your 'new mounts from old billiard balls', the following documentation would be required: reasonable verification that the billiard balls were manufactured and imported prior to 1989 (for instance, if they were acquired before 1989), and documentation showing that a pipemaker in the same country (which must be the country where the permit-seeker now resides) made the mounts from those aforementioned billiard balls. Such a set could receive a CITES permit for transport as personal effects, provided the whole elephant-to-pipes "paper trail" hasn't crossed a border since 1989.

Bill

If you want 'confirmation', see the CITES documents at www.cites.org:

A specimen of a CITES-listed species may be imported into or exported (or re-exported) from a State party to the Convention only if the appropriate document has been obtained and presented for clearance at the port of entry or exit. There is some variation of the requirements from one country to another and it is always necessary to check on the national laws that may be stricter, but the basic conditions that apply for Appendices I and II are described below.

Appendix-I specimens

1. An import permit issued by the Management Authority of the State of import is required. This may be issued only if the specimen is not to be used for primarily commercial purposes and if the import will be for purposes that are not detrimental to the survival of the species. In the case of a live animal or plant, the Scientific Authority must be satisfied that the proposed recipient is suitably equipped to house and care for it.

2. An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is also required.

An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained; the trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species; and an import permit has already been issued.

A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the provisions of the Convention and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if an import permit has been issued.
....

Full Convention text at: http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/text.shtml

[Elmek]

THanks for clearing up the 'new / reworked' ivory scenario. It would seem to be best if you plan travelling with an instrunent then this material needs to be avoided.

PLenty of natural alternatives eg box, horn, bone and have seen some very good alternativs some having a grain running through them.

John

[ChaplainBlake]

"I don't see the logic in putting bits of a dead animal on a set of pipes."

"It does seem very odd in this day and age. But the initial historical purpose was to secure a piece of a harder material to the ends of the chanter/drones to avoid splinting. The decorative element became embelished over time."

I have a set on order with antler mounts...antler personally harvested by grabbing shed antlers from animals residing on family property. That makes my set even more special to me, as the land and animals on it are a central part of my upbringing and treasured family experiences. My pipes will mean more to me as a result, and will have a story of their own. Truly, it has little to do with the "day and age", and really resides in the specific culture which was conveyed to you by your parents, peers, and the like. With respect: hunting, fishing, and using animal products is neither outdated nor the province of mindless, cruel people (not that you were insinuating that, though some do). To answer the former statement, logic has nothing to do whatsoever with silver, or any ornate decor on pipes...so why apply it to antler or some of the other products? Decoration is entirely illogical, strictly speaking, as it serves no immediate physical function. Really, is there anything logical about this instrument?:D That, and not all antler, ivory, etc, is farmed from dead animals.

I assume you were both speaking directly to the use of products coming from animals listed as protected or endangered (a practice I oppose as well), but wanted to clarify why someone might want to use an animal product on their pipes.

--Blake

[Elmek]

"I don't see the logic in putting bits of a dead animal on a set of pipes."

Use what little intellegence you have as probably 99% of all pipers use animal products on their pipes. How many really have a synthetic bag (apart from the GHBers and their gortex) and obtaining leather invariably involves the animal being well and truly dead as skinning a live one is a lot more difficult

John