Please help...whistle buying problems

ahogrelius · Post by **ahogrelius** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:14 pm

Ballyshannon wrote:The MOST IMPORTANT thing about the Chieftain is to make sure it's nice and warm before playing. It's amazing how difficult it is to play cold as opposed to warm. When it's warm, the sound comes into its own and the second octave that's nearly impossible when cold, becomes clear, strong, and pretty easy to play with some push. When it's cold, you'll get screeching, double notes, and raspy high G, A, and B notes. Once warm, you don't need as strong a push to hit those upper second octave notes clearly and they sing out. But you still need to maintain a good concentrated push of air.

Spot on Ballyshannon! You managed to describe the Chieftains quirks precisely and I totally agree that it is a truly wonderful whistle. It may take some time to tame it, but once you've done that the tone is really warm with a fair bit of chiff.

Habo; -Stick with the Chieftain for a while and try to work a bit on it. You may find that you don't want to part with it once you've learned how to play it...

Slán,
Anders

Habo · Post by **Habo** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:57 am

I am slowly beginning to understand the situation. It seems a matter of "horses for courses." There are different whistles for different situations. I have soldiered on with the Chieftain and now I can get the second octive without a lot of trouble. And I will be experimenting today with warming it up as the second octive sounds a bit rough.

I would now like to ask this: WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENT WHISTLE ALL ABOUT.

1. What is a session whistle
2. Why do some have narrow bores
3. What are the characteristics of various the materials whistles are made out of, (brass, alloy, wood)

I do not have a music shop locally which deals in any whistles other than the cheaper tin type ... and I doubt they know anything about the whistles they are selling, hence my questions.

Ballyshannon · Post by **Ballyshannon** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:53 pm

There are way too many choices out there!

Session whistles: Whistles designed for more volume to hold their own with many different instruments in large sessions. Most session whistles will have a larger bore than trads/narrow bores. But be careful here. When playing in sessions, the idea is to fit in and not dominate unless doing a solo. That's why experienced session players will have a few different whistles and use them wisely. Otherwise, you may be asked to "sit the next one out"...and leave you sitting it out. Popular "session" whistles would be the Burke Sessions, Reyburn Session D, Susato D, Chieftain, Overton, etc, but truthfully I've seen just about everything used in session. Whatever works in a given session environment could be termed a "session" whistle.

Narrow bores: Whistles with slightly lower volume than the session whistles and designed for more all-around playing and playing relatively quietly at home. As the name implies, these whistles in general have a smaller diameter tube with a smaller air window than session whistles. As a result, they're quieter, the tone is not quite as full or deep, and the high end is usually more "bird-like" (for lack of a better term) and sweeter. Just make sure you get a well-designed whistle that doesn't have a shrill high end (this applies to ANY whistle).

I might mention here that some players prefer a larger or smaller diameter tube for comfort and playability depending on hand/finger size.

Since there are many things that can affect tonal characteristics such as fipple design and construction which shapes the tone, and tube diameter, the following are very general observations regarding materials. I'm sure whistle makers will want to expand or amend these observations.
Brass: Usually a warmer and sweeter tone than other metals
Aluminum: Usually produces a bright, round tone with depth. Some whistles are made of an alloy (mixture of metals) and I haven't heard one yet I like or sounds like an Irish whistle. But then I haven't heard them all. The ones I've heard sound hard with no real tonal character or personality...just notes.
Wood: More complex tone with deeper tonal qualities than metal. Wood usually sounds like wood (now there's a real revelation!), although I've played some wood whistles that went above and beyond and actually transcended the "wood" sound, sounding more like a traditional whistle.
Composite: Tonal characteristics much like wood but without the maintenance. I have a Burke composite C that's one of the best sounding whistles I've ever owned or played. You can hear a quick track on Clips N Snips "Original" section. It's the first track in the list, "Mist O'er the Shannon".
Nickel (found on Generations and some other trads): The only nickel whistles I've played are Generations. They have the brightness of aluminum but with a slightly "darker" tone and more depth than brass. I have a tweaked nickel Gen Eb with red tip that's simply amazing. It's a treat to play this whistle.
Copper: I've owned and have made copper whistles and they tend to sound a bit "hard" to me and "non-whistle"-like. Copper is also heavy and can become uncomfortable when playing for a while. Sandy Jasper, maker of Elfsong Whistles, is making some very good sounding copper whistles but they're still a bit heavy.
Polymer/Plastic: I've heard excellent ones and I've heard poor ones. When one mentions plastic whistle, "recorder" comes to mind. But don't think all plastic whistles are crap. Susato and Dixon are considered the best of the plastic/polymer whistles and for good reason...they're simply very good whistles. I haven't checked but they could very well be the only plastic whistles in production. I have a standard bore Susato D and love it. It doesn't have the tonal complexity of more traditional materials but it's pure with dead-on intonation, sounds like a whistle...not a recorder, can be played sweetly or loudly with good volume, and is reliable. I also have a Dixon polymer tunable D with a wonderful tone. It just can't be pushed as much as the Susato. Nice, sweet second octave.
PVC/CPVC: It's amazing what can be done with PVC. As with any whistle, no matter what material is used for the tube, the mouthpiece design and construction is what makes and shapes the sound. I've heard PVC whistles that sound absolutely horrible. I've also head some that contend with the best of the best due to the design. It's all in the fipple design and wall thickness. James Becker is currently making some fine non tunable PVC whistles for unbelievably low prices. I have his Eb, D, C, and A, and they're surprisingly good. The Eb is particularly good, and the D is excellent. PVC usually sounds strong and pure, like the Susatos.

Also, each material has its own maintenance requirements. Metal whistles need warming up before playing. Wood whistles usually require periodic maintenance to keep the wood from cracking. The exception here are the Sweetheart Pros that are actually laminates and need no maintenance, although you do need to separate the head from the tube after playing because of the cork slide lining. I don't usually have to warm up my Burke composite, Susato, PVC, or plastic whistles. I just soak them in soapy water on occasion to clean them out.

Hope this helps some.

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:47 pm

Just to add to that nice summary Ballyshannon -

- Under the polymer/plastic whistles, some wonderful delrin (a brand name acetal resin or polycetal) whistles are made. I have a delrin whistle by Paul Busman and delrin whistles by Chris Abell that are terrific. Delrin is the material of which many high end whistles' fipples are made.

- Wood (and Paul and Loren would likely chime in here) is not a homogeneous category, although I agree that the voicing and other elements of making the whistle are more important than the material. There may be some inate tonal differences, all else being equal, between, e.g., African blackwood and boxwood or red lancewood, etc.

Philo

Tucson Whistler · Post by **Tucson Whistler** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:44 pm

My Chieftain G does take a lot of air and it took some getting used to. If you decide totry another, I always put in my vote for a Tommy Martin's Thornton whistle http://www.thorntonwhistles.info/index.html or a Hudson Winds whistle http://www.hudsonwinds.com/index.html. They are my favorites. Thornton's sound beautiful (i can't even describe how perfect they sound), but are a bit quieter. Hudson's are also sweet, but are louder (good in a session).

Adrian · Post by **Adrian** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:43 am

Habo

On reading your opening post my first thought was that you would probably be happy with a Burke D.

If you want a Chieftain that is 'mellow' in both octaves trade your 'D' for the delightful Chieftain 'A'. It has a beautiful flute like tone and is very easy to play.

Habo · Post by **Habo** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:13 pm

OK Guys, I finally got feed up my Chieftain whiste, and mostly because of the "D" in the second octive.

I traded down to a Dixon Alloy Whistle ... and what do you know... I am not happy with it. All the notes are great except the low "D".

I know I need to under blow this whistle, but the low "D" just doesn't sound good.

I think I want to invest in a Burke, but I sure wish I could try one before I bought it.

I thought the problem with blowing a whistle would be in learning the fingerings and embellishments ... I never thought I would have problems with the oddities of the instruments.

Is there an instrument of choice by the professionals?

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:34 pm

Habo wrote:Is there an instrument of choice by the professionals?

sure, most of 'em have favorites

bet you were hoping for a consensus

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:42 pm

Denny wrote:
bet you were hoping for a consensus

Well, we know what the best ones play

Sorry, just couldn't resist

Habo · Post by **Habo** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:09 pm

Well, I got a laugh out of that post ... and sometimes the best thing we can do is just chill out, and then work at it again when we get calmed down.

Well, at least I think so.

Jason Paul · Post by **Jason Paul** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:54 pm

Peter - clearly that lady has no idea what she's doing. I mean look, her hands are even backwards!

BTW, do you know when that photo was taken? Seems I kept reading that she was playing Sindt whistles (but I guess we never leave our roots).

Jason

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:08 pm

Jason Paul wrote:
BTW, do you know when that photo was taken? Seems I kept reading that she was playing Sindt whistles (but I guess we never leave our roots).

Jason

I took it last tuesday week, loads more over on the other forum next door : here.

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:37 pm

ack, Peter....no fair!!!

she knows how to play

Guinness · Post by **Guinness** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:54 pm

Ballyshannon wrote: Brass:...
Aluminum:...
Wood:...
Composite:...
Nickel...:...
Copper:...
Polymer/Plastic:...
PVC/CPVC:...

I'll bet the sound of a diamond whistle would be multi-faceted and brilliant.

I'm still trying to figure out why a carrot whistle doesn't sound quite like a carrot, well that is until you start eating it.

Ballyshannon · Post by **Ballyshannon** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:05 pm

Yes, I forgot to mention Delrin in my materials summary. I've heard Delrin whistles that sound great. Thanks for the reminder.

Also forgot to mention glass in my summary. I once saw a glass whistle (can't remember where). No one allowed to play it so have no idea what it sounds like. Clear, maybe?

Sadly, I've never been to the Waterford Crystal factory, but I'd be willing to bet they have a glass whistle on display. Anyone been there who can say yay or nay?

BTW, since Chieftain and Overton are often compared (unjustly, I might add), I thought I'd mention here that I recently bought Doc Jones' Colin Goldie Overton hi D and it's wonderful. Requires much less air/push than my Chieftain, with nice clear notes in both octaves. Not quite as loud or "fat" as the Chieftain, but a lovely, full, round clear tone with just a bit of chiff and certainly easier to play. Second octave D is nice and clear. Easy to hit notes clearly up to the 3rd octave D, although only one tune I do hits a 3rd octave D at the very end...and the Overton hits it cleanly. Can't get there with the Chieftain.

I agree that what Habo would probably be most happy with overall is a Burke. They're all good...brass, aluminum, or composite and it's indeed a rarity if you ever get a "bad" one. Even if you do, Mike is so good to work with, he'll take care of it. Unless you find a used one, I'd suggest ordering direct from Mike. Burkes are normally very clear and responsive, very accurate, and easy to play. I have three Burkes and love them. But don't think just because it's a Burke, you won't have to back off on the bell note (low D). Like most whistles, Burkes are sensitive on the low end and you just have to get used to it. Sensitive bell notes are just something whistlers have to deal with. Granted, some are more sensitive than others. My Dixon Trad D is soooo sensitive on the low D, I have to barely breathe into the mouthpiece to get a clear note. But once you know that and get used to it, it's playable and you work around it. I've found most trads are like this....Gens, Oaks, Feadogs, Waltons, etc. The low D on my Burke narrow bore aluminum & brass and my composite C are all pretty sensitive, requiring some control to get a clear note. But again, I'm aware of that, have adjusted, and don't worry about it.

BTW, the bell note on the Overton is pretty strong but will still break if pushed just a bit too much. I still have to back off on the bell note.

DC