O-ring problems with Burke Session Pro

garycrosby · Post by **garycrosby** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 3:59 pm

O-rings may be made from synthetic compounds or natural rubber. My dad was a plumber and taught me that the synthetic ones were not as good as the natural rubber unless the O-ring was going to be exposed to any kind of oil or oil-based product. Natural rubber is much more pliable and elastic than synthetics (especially at extreme temperatures) but doesn't hold up well when exposed to non-polar solvents (like paint thinner) or oil-based products. Thus, as Dr "Ruth" Gigglesheimer pointed out, vaseline should not be used with natural rubber. Often when fitting O-rings a bit of water is all you really need for lubrication; if the O-ring doesn't fit when lubricated with water its probably the wrong size

Pure Silcone grease and KY Jelly are safe with natural rubber. O-rings purchased at automotive stores are likely made from synthetics because of possible exposure (in use) to gasoline, oil, and other petroleum-based fluids. Many bought at plumbing supply stores will be natural rubber.

KY Jam? Oh, I don't want to know ...

mike.r · Post by **mike.r** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 2:42 pm

A small roll of plumbers teflon tape should be an essential in every fipplers survival kit and will more than make do until the o-ring is replaced.Hope this helps. Mike:)

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Sun Aug 19, 2001 5:42 pm

Thanks for all the helpful info. I now know more about O-rings than I ever wanted! I left Mike a voicemail message, pending his answer in a month or two it's Teflon tape and browsing in the hardware store. I still think it's maybe not a good design idea. Wouldn't waxed thread do the job as well and be a lot easier to replace?

jmssmh · Post by **jmssmh** » Sun Aug 19, 2001 6:27 pm

In defense of the O-ring design, I think those whistle that use o-rings(Silkstones, Burkes and Susatos) have the best seal compare to any other two part whistles.

Joe

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 7:28 am

On 2001-08-17 12:56, JayMitch wrote:
If anyone finds out the size, please post it. I would like to pick up a few to keep as spares.

Extract from an email I just received from Mike Burke:

"...The size, by the way is a SAE 015 and the material is either Polyurethane or Viton.
I don't like Buna, but a Buna will serve temporarily."

JayMitch · Post by **JayMitch** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 10:25 am

Thanks, Steve. I'm off to the hardware store.

--Jay

Tyghress · Post by **Tyghress** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 10:34 am

I've taped that information inside my case so I have it handy when I need it. Thanks!

Michael Burke · Post by **Michael Burke** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 12:36 pm

Hi Everyone,
I am posting my second message today, a record.
I tried to post to this message over the weekend, but couldn't get registered for some reason.
I will be glad to send O'rings to anyone that
loses one, or damages one. I am wondering now if I should figure out how to include an extra O'ring with each whistle. I considered this early on, but decided I would wait to see if it was necessary. There are about 500 of the O'ring slide Ds out there now, and I have had only a few letters in which people had O'rings fall out and only three in which they were lost or torn. A spare sounds like a good idea if you put it in a safe place, and if you can find it when it is needed. What I may do is to make up some envelopes with spares in them and have them ready to post when people request them. If you need an O'ring, please email me, and I will send one right out to you. Any ideas from customers on how best to handle this are greatly appreciated.
The O'rings I use are either Polyurethane, or
Viton, both of which are resistant to petroleum products. I use a synthetic grease that comes in a tube and has a TFE secondary ingredient. Greases like this are available at hardware stores and auto supply stores.
Sorry for any inconvenience. The O'ring method of sealing the slide seems to work much better than the old method of metal to metal, but I am open to suggestions.
All the best
Mike

Tyghress · Post by **Tyghress** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 2:26 pm

Mike, I've thought of putting together a little kit with a dowel and sleeve to clean the bore, small vial of brasso and pads, lubricant and spare O's, and sticking it in my "gig bag" with the cassette recorder, tuner, wrench, hammers, notepad, pen, flotsam and jetsam.

Sending a couple of spare O's with a new whistle is a nicety and instructions on how to replace it if it gets displaced or lost, and what to buy if need be.

What other things would be useful in such a kit? Oh! A free 'subscription' to Chiff and Fipple of course!

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Sat Apr 27, 2002 12:29 pm

Are Copeland tunables vulnerable to the same problem? Do they have O rings that cause this trouble? I just got my Copeland low D yesterday. Can I leave it alone, or do I need to start twisting the head every day to keep in loose? Do I need to apply petroleum jelly to it, or is it good the way it came from the maker?

JimmyM · Post by **JimmyM** » Sat Apr 27, 2002 1:24 pm

Sindt's tuning slides are properly engineered to be a perfect tight but sliding fit without O-rings, no leaks. Apply some valve-slide grease for brass instruments from a music shop to make the slide tight but easily mov(e?)able, then with a bit of luck it will respond without sticking just at the point in the high B-part of a tune when suddenly you realise that maybe it's you who might be the one who is a wee bittie out of tune.

My Silkstone with O-rings and grease moves much too easily - Paul Hayward says rap a few turns of sewing thread under the O-ring as required. Paul also promises to send replacement o-rings to anyone who needs them.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sat Apr 27, 2002 2:05 pm

On 2002-04-27 14:29, blackhawk wrote:
Are Copeland tunables vulnerable to the same problem? Do they have O rings that cause this trouble? I just got my Copeland low D yesterday. Can I leave it alone, or do I need to start twisting the head every day to keep in loose? Do I need to apply petroleum jelly to it, or is it good the way it came from the maker?

Copeland Tuneables do not have O-rings, they are the standard metal on metal type tunings slides. I don't think the Copeland slide is any more or less likely to become stuck than that of any similar design.

Having said that, I recently had a VERY stuck tuning slide on my Copeland Low D, and I would highly recommend you move the slide a bit, on a regular basis, to keep it free.
I recently had an depth conversation with Michael Copeland regarding what steps may be necessary to free a seriously stuck slide, and trust me when I tell you it's not for the faint of heart! =;^)

BTW, for those of you who have never spoken with Michael; He's a very warm and generous man, a real pleasure to talk to - great guy.

Loren
P.S. I've had Burke Al-Pro for over a year and a half, never had any problems with the slide.

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Sat Apr 27, 2002 2:55 pm

Thanks, Loren!

Michael Burke · Post by **Michael Burke** » Sat Apr 27, 2002 10:52 pm

Hi Everyone:
Just up late tonight checking my email and
thought I should check the Forum for any
problems that have surfaced. The republish
of my August 2001 comments covers the subject
well enough, though I have been considering
including a spare O'ring with every whistle.
I had also considered in the beginning sending a small tube of lubricant with the whistles, but the tubes that I can get of suitable lubes are too large, or too expensive to make them practical.
I will repeat that I have used Polyurethane or Viton on all whistles with good results
generally. The only problem is when a whistle is pulled apart and the upper bore is inserted at a cocked angle with the lower bore, instead of pushing straight back in. If you catch the corner of the O'ring with the edge of the upper bore, it can sometimes become dislodged.
I am working on some improvements that will
force the upper bore to pass through a small section of metal before contacting the O'ring
in models I am designing right now. This seems to make the problem go away. But meanwhile, if anyone has a problem, I will send free O'rings to them and help them insert them. It is really easy once you do it the first time. And if you can't get it back in, I will fix it and mail it back for free.
I made metal to metal slides in the past in brass, and I know that these designs will also stick if they are not kept lubricated, and moved often, no matter how precise the machining. The problem is that the brass will
oxidize and the oxide causes the seizing to occur in the metal to metal designs. Nothing is as tight as an O'ring, though, and if you replace it, it is as good as the first day you bought it. A metal to metal slide will eventually loosen and need to be refitted or
tightened in some way. No design is perfect, though, and I am constantly trying to figure out better ways to make them.
Please contact me if you have problems. As some have pointed out,I am busy, but nothing I am doing is more important than serving my customers. I don't always do that as I should, but it is my goal to do so.
All the best
Mike

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Sat Apr 27, 2002 11:26 pm

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-04-30 01:50 ]</font>