Do I want a bouzouki or octave mandolin? (or cittern) ?

[Walden]

But if anything went in a style of music.... would it be a style of music?

That's pretty deep.

Is there an anarchist style of music?

[TheSpoonMan]

But if anything went in a style of music.... would it be a style of music?

That's pretty deep.

Is there an anarchist style of music?

Maybe "Celtic" music.

Or Jazz.

All the actual anarchists I've ever met seem to love classical music, of all things. Huh.

[jayjay]

On the thread about "what instruments do we play" it came up with Nanohedron about a cittern. It was mentioned they are sometimes tuned in fifths, and have 5 couplets. I'm really curious about this thought.

Hoping to find out who knows scale length >>and general other things<< of cittern as compared to the other instruments we're talking about : Octave mandolin , Mandola, and bouzouki.

For one, I bet citterns are much harder to find.

[Nanohedron]

Here we get into "tomayto/tomahto", a bit. Just to confuse things, the terms "bouzouki" and "cittern" get interchanged, these days. For me, an Irish bouzouki has quite a long-scale neck with eight strings in four double courses, and a modern cittern has a short-scale neck with ten strings in five double courses.

Still, there are makers who offer short-scale 'zouks, and long-scale 'zouks with five courses. Is it really a cittern, then? I dunno. They have similar bodies, after all, although most 'zouk bodies are smaller than cittern bodies in my experience. I just think of the basic idea as reasonably duplicating the cittern's proportions as found in Ireland and the British Isles in the 1700s, and the Irish bouzouki as duplicating the long neck of its bowl-backed Greek progenitor. But that's just a jumping-off point, really. A short-scale 'zouk could technically be called a cittern, as citterns historically have had all sorts of sizes, string counts, course counts, and tunings. Clear as mud?

Best as I know, anyway, your "usual" (as I count it) cittern's scale will be shorter than your usual 'zouk, and I think longer than an octave mando or mandola.

For one, I bet citterns are much harder to find.

In terms of people who play them, I'd say that's right. In terms of makers, not so much. They're out there. Foley (no website, now; I hope he's still making his excellent instruments), Sobell (who revived the instrument), Fylde, Moon, others. Maybe someone could direct you in this. I've got my gizmo, am most happy with it, and so I really don't surf around looking at other makes.

[jayjay]

Here we get into "tomayto/tomahto", a bit. Just to confuse things, the terms "bouzouki" and "cittern" get interchanged, these days. For me, an Irish bouzouki has quite a long-scale neck with eight strings in four double courses, and a modern cittern has a short-scale neck with ten strings in five double courses.

I think I understand well that part.

...Still, there are makers who offer short-scale 'zouks, and long-scale 'zouks with five courses. Is it really a cittern, then? I dunno. They have similar bodies, after all, although most 'zouk bodies are smaller than cittern bodies in my experience. I just think of the basic idea as reasonably duplicating the cittern's proportions as found in Ireland and the British Isles in the 1700s, and the Irish bouzouki as duplicating the long neck of its bowl-backed Greek progenitor. But that's just a jumping-off point, really.

I'm with you so far. I understand how these instruments in a modern sense , begin to overlap.

A short-scale 'zouk could technically be called a cittern, as citterns historically have had all sorts of sizes, string counts, course counts, and tunings. Clear as mud

Clear !

Best as I know, anyway, your "usual" (as I count it) cittern's scale will be shorter than your usual 'zouk, and I think longer than an octave mando or mandola.

For one, I bet citterns are much harder to find.

In terms of people who play them, I'd say that's right. In terms of makers, not so much. They're out there. Foley (no website, now; I hope he's still making his excellent instruments), Fylde, Moon, others. Maybe someone could direct you in this. I've got my gizmo, am most happy with it, and so I really don't surf around looking at other makes.

Okay, I think that I might actually consider a cittern --in addition to, or over an Octave mandolin -- as it *just might* tickle a nerve in other applications (Latin sounds). I think at this point I might need to listen to soom good examples of the two >> octave mandolin , and cittern << and begin to get creative.

Still, I bet price will have a lot to do with my decision, at least for now. Thanks so very much Nano!

[jayjay]

The generally held view is that an octave mandolin (in Europe it's called an octave mandola) has a scale length of somewhere between 20 and 23 inches, whereas a bouzouki's scale length is (usually) from 24 to 27 inches. As an example, I have a Foley bouzouki with a 26.5 inch scale length and a Freshwater OM with a 21.5 inch scale. I use the Freshwater strictly for playing tunes (melody) and I'll flatpick or fingerpick the Foley for backing tunes and song accompaniment. To further confuse the issue (:-]) my Flatiron has a scale length of 23.5 inches and the label says it's a 'zouk and the endblock says it's an OM. The body size usually varies in relation to the length of the neck.

Nano, can you tell us what the scale lenth is on *your* cittern ? We'll have the measurements then...

~Jj

[Nanohedron]

Thanks so very much Nano!

My pleasure. I made my choice because I really like that extra bass course, and the neck scale. Sound depends on the maker, of course, and that made my choice for me, too. As I mentioned, I prefer unison courses. I tried octave courses, and they don't suit me. Others like them.

Now start practicing your responses to the baffled and curious:

-"No, not sitar. Cittern. C-I-T-T-E-R-N. CittERRRNN."

-"Actually, it's not a 'zouk, but a cittern. But a less confusing proper form of address is 'gizmo'. It's probably best to go with that."

-"You could say it's the missing link between mandolins and guitars."

Stuff like that.

[jayjay]

My pleasure. I made my choice because I really like that extra bass course, and the neck scale. Sound depends on the maker, of course, and that made my choice for me, too. As I mentioned, I prefer unison courses. I tried octave courses, and they don't suit me. Others like them.

Purely academicly (not having played) I could guess I'd like the low strings octaves, but the top 3 in unison.

Now start practicing your responses to the baffled and curious:

-"No, not sitar. Cittern. C-I-T-T-E-R-N. CittERRRNN."

-"Actually, it's not a 'zouk, but a cittern. But a less confusing proper form of address is 'gizmo'. It's probably best to go with that."

-"You could say it's the missing link between mandolins and guitars."

Stuff like that.

Heh heh.... people use to always ask me what my *mandolin* was. My then guitar partner would joke stuff like 'it's an accordion' ... and people stood there dumbfounded, sort of believing him. I think they wanted to hear that it was a bal... balila... um... that Russian thing.

[Nanohedron]

Nano, can you tell us what the scale lenth is on *your* cittern ? We'll have the measurements then...

~Jj

16¼ inches from nut to bottom fret. Shorter than I would have guessed.

[jayjay]

Nano, can you tell us what the scale lenth is on *your* cittern ? We'll have the measurements then...

~Jj

16¼ inches from nut to bottom fret. Shorter than I would have guessed.

Hmm... my mandolin is just under 14 inches. I think I could get use to a cittern almost easier than an octave mandolin, and still have the affect.... hmmm. It's probably about the same as a mandola ? It's the width of that extra course of strings.... I'm kind of scared about. I have tiny hands and chording on anything bigger than a mando is very difficult, I have to pick and choose around a bit. Still...

[jayjay]

Nano, would you mind giving us the measurement for the width of your cittern's neck, at the nut?

[Nanohedron]

Nano, can you tell us what the scale lenth is on *your* cittern ? We'll have the measurements then...

~Jj

16¼ inches from nut to bottom fret. Shorter than I would have guessed.

Hmm... my mandolin is just under 14 inches. I think I could get use to a cittern almost easier than an octave mandolin, and still have the affect.... hmmm. It's the width I'm kind of scared about. I have tiny hands and chording on anything bigger than a mando is very difficult, I have to pick and choose around a bit. Still...

I have very small hands, myself. The neck width isn't as wide as some guitars...let's see...yep, 1 and 5/8" at top, 2 and 1/8" at bottom. Cumulative string tension is pretty great, though, so I don't do much bar-chording.

[Unseen122]

Surprised no one has asked yet, but do you intend to play melody or backing? Because of the shorter scale it is easier to play melody on an OM and due to the longer scale which increases sustain Bouzoukis are generally considered better for backing..

Precisely my angst with the Martin, I simply cant chord on it. I developed my lead skills ten times better than my chording, but I'm learning some nice crosspicking styles for backup & fill, and on the mandolin I am able to chord well enough. I think I'll try them out at the shop and see what I like best, but it's here that I'll learn what is used more in the traditional sense. I don't want to have to tune up to weird keys I can't play, which has had me totally lost in jams before. I am not an instant transposer , so I just have to Think Mandolin.

Although, I have an OM which I tune to GDAD (usually) and use it for backing and if I want to play the melody I play my Mando which is in GDAE if I am not playing Flute or Whistle. I also use the tuning GDGD on my OM for songs that I know the chords for in D, but can't sing them in D and capo up on the OM to play in B or whatever key the song is in.

Well, I keep forgetting about the handy gadget of a capo, since I have always played mandolin I wouldn't think of using one.... heh, heh. I suppose becoming familiar with capo (as I do on the Martin, but the intonation suffers) on a good OM will be my answer. I will want to experiement with the octave stringed couplets like the bouzouki apparently has. I dunno, mayb I'll fall in love with some crazy 'zouk ... ... when at the music store.

In a traditional sense, you will find Bouzouki is used more often and used tuned to GDAD. The introduction of the Bouzouki to Irish music started in the '60s with players like Andy Irvine, Johnny Monyihan, and Donal Lunny. In the beginning they were all playing Greek style Bouzoukis (Bowl Back) and instead of using the standard Greek tuning of FCAD the tuned the lower two courses up to GDAD. There are two makers who are considered the "inventors" of the flat back Irish Bouzouki they would be Peter Abnett and Stephan Sobell. These were the fist makers to make what we now call an Irish Bouzouki at the request of the original players mentioned above.

So what is the advantage to GDAD for backing? This tuning sounds great when using open string drones. It is typical for Bouzouki players to play not chords but droney counter melodic lines which use the occasional chord and double stop. Since most tunes are in D, G, A, or there relative keys it is not that difficult to back most tunes without a capo because you have open strings tuned to the root note which can be used for drones. Personally I only use a capo for B minor. Players who use GDAE for backing typically strum like a Guitar player would. This is not the case all the time I have met players who don't do that.

As for Citterns the extra course is used for a low string or a high string the choice is up to the player. The Low string would be tuned to either C or D depending on the players preferance, each has its own advantages and disadvantages. The high string can be tuned to b or a. I feel that a Cittern tuned to GDADA is the most versatile tuning because one can back using just like it is in GDAD, but when playing tunes you don't have to strech or slide up to the a and b which makes tune playing easier. So if you want to play both tunes and backing that is probably the best option. What tuning do you use Nano?

[Nanohedron]

DGDAD, using GHS True Medium phosphor bronze-wound guitar strings. If I use regular Medium gauge, the bass course hasn't enough tension and sounds "flobby".

[jayjay]

I have very small hands, myself. The neck width isn't as wide as some guitars...let's see...yep, 1 and 5/8" at top, 2 and 1/8" at bottom. Cumulative string tension is pretty great, though, so I don't do much bar-chording.

A whole 1/2 inch wider than my mandolin. I think it would be doable though, and I can imagine the tension would be incredible! I happen to have a feeling that higher tension instruments are more volatile, musically speaking>> and that makes no sense, I know.