IrishPiper42 wrote:But every time I visit the Chiff and Fipple there's nothing but guitar bashing on every thread.
Did you actually take the trouble to read this thread? I was absolutely not guitar bashing. I'm a guitarist. A lot of the people who have commented here are guitarists too. I haven't seen anything yet that could be described as guitar bashing. It must be hard to play with that chip on your shoulder.
Rob Sharer wrote:As a backer of any experience, you're entirely subservient to what's being played by the melody players, so at the slightest whiff of trouble, back off.
My philosophy is a little different. I respond to what the melody players are doing, I collaborate with them to create a total musical event. I don't think of that as being subservient, exactly. If the melody player is one of those who think accompaniment is best when it's totally ignorable or (even better) inaudible, I don't play. But that's another rant.
(And you really should get yerself up to DC sometime soon, Rob. It's been years.)
Right again, Rob. It really should be a conversation between everyone, and I like nothing better than playing with melody players who listen and respond to what I'm doing on the guitar. But on the other hand, hardly anything makes me quite so peevish as an accompanist with an agressive agenda. We've all been subjected to the backer who knows better what tempo we should be playing at, or who really isn't concerned with the conversational aspects of the session so long as he can work that altered llth chord into his Balkan rhythm a few more times. Or, who doesn't know the tune, and still insists on playing.
Personally, I love backing tunes when everyone is listening, or being backed under the same circumstances. In fact, I choose my musical partners more or less on this basis; everyone needs to be on board the spaceship if we're ever to get the darn thing off the ground and en route to that "other place." To me, the idea of playing together is really about that, to combine in order to attain something higher, travelling as it does under many different names (lift, craic, draiocht, nyaah, etc.). Sadly, all it takes is one member of the group to let down his or her end of the deal, and the whole thing fails to get off the ground. By "the deal," I mean that by being included in the session, everyone is being trusted to not let their own pursuit of a good time impinge on anyone or everyone else's good time. That doesn't mean that everyone has to be on the same level as far as musical accomplishment; to me, it means that beginners know and respect their own limitations, and advanced players don't intentionally try to shake everyone else off for the whole evening. And, to return to the thread, accompanists don't try to push the melody players around or take advantage of the situation to selfishly "rock out,"and melody players don't heap scorn and resentment on the backer(s) for merely being there.
My feeling about this and all other issues that arise at sessions between the experienced players and the less advanced is that a little humility on both sides is called for. Speaking for the backers now, and of the trad world in general rather than anyone in particular, isn't it funny how the same folks that are always giving out about accompanists at sessions change their tune as soon as there's an aul' gig or album in the works? Even old Tony MacMahon himself will ring up Stephen Cooney for a bit of a dig-out on stage from time to time. But then, maybe I'm making a mountain out of a Noel Hill.....
Rob
p.s. Dying to get up to DC for the craic....but why you no come down to Nellysford no more? I keep expecting you to ruck up at a party.
Good post Rob. One thing that caught my eye that I disagree a bit with is
Rob Sharer wrote:To me, the idea of playing together is really about that, to combine in order to attain something higher, travelling as it does under many different names (lift, craic, draiocht, nyaah, etc.).
Maybe it's a terminology thing but if I am looking for nyaa or draiocht I look for solo or possibly duo playing. For me the essence of the tradition is self expression through ornamentation and variation. Until about 100 years ago it was an art form pretty much exclusively based in solo performance. It is hard for a high level of self expression to come across in ensemble playing.
If I am looking for craic I look for a good driving session with accomplished tune players, plenty of reels and good accompaniment. I am also looking for good conversation between tunes and good Guinness! There is no doubt that with good musical understanding between players great and exciting music can be created in a session environment.
As I said it may be a definitions or terminology thing but for me nyaa/draoicht and craic are important but distinct elements of ITM.
Fair enough. To be honest, I am a tiny bit contemptuous of most uses of any of these terms, since it has been my experience that they are so often bandied about in deadly earnest by folks who don't really know what they mean. You yourself are obviously not guilty of this! They are indeed different concepts, and I didn't intend to suggest that they were interchangeable. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.
We've all been subjected to the backer who knows better what tempo we should be playing at, or who really isn't concerned with the conversational aspects of the session so long as he can work that altered llth chord into his Balkan rhythm a few more times.
You know, I don't think I've ever met an accompanist who has mastered his or her instrument, who has a deep knowledge of the music, and yet acts like that. Far more common in my experience is the clueless player who thinks of accompaniment as a way to get in on the action without having to do all that tedious practicing and tune-learning.
p.s. Dying to get up to DC for the craic....but why you no come down to Nellysford no more? I keep expecting you to ruck up at a party.
The world has been too much with me. I'm hoping I'll get down there for the next one.
alurker wrote:.......
For me the essence of the tradition is self expression through ornamentation and variation. Until about 100 years ago it was an art form pretty much exclusively based in solo performance. It is hard for a high level of self expression to come across in ensemble playing.
.....
Let me see now - 100 years ago or so.
That'd be before the guitar really began doing its thang with ITM, would it?
talasiga wrote:Let me see now - 100 years ago or so.
That'd be before the guitar really began doing its thang with ITM, would it?
Correct. Mr. A. Lurker was perhaps referring to what would later be
called The Great Forhead Slappening of 1908, when Irish musicians
first realized that 2 or more people could each play an instrument at
the same time. ITM would never be the same.
We've all been subjected to the backer who knows better what tempo we should be playing at, or who really isn't concerned with the conversational aspects of the session so long as he can work that altered llth chord into his Balkan rhythm a few more times.
You know, I don't think I've ever met an accompanist who has mastered his or her instrument, who has a deep knowledge of the music, and yet acts like that. Far more common in my experience is the clueless player who thinks of accompaniment as a way to get in on the action without having to do all that tedious practicing and tune-learning.
The stories I could tell...
fearfaoin wrote:...what would later be
called The Great Forhead Slappening of 1908...
Nice.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Balochi musician
Lest I be accused of guitar-bashing, let me point out that some people pull this crap with melody instruments as well.
There was a fellow who showed up at my old session right before I moved away. He had a beautiful wooden flute made of some highly figured wood, and a music stand. Apparently he was a beginner, knowing only a handful of tunes with the help of sheet music, so naturally he would spend a good deal of the session sitting out---except he didn't.
Some folk are just too self-conscious to sit out, especially if they are the only one. Particularly bad are the folks who take up an instrument as part of a midlife crisis, and have desperate need to prove their worth. You can usually tell when these folk are about to try some unholy above-and-below-the-melody type noise, because you can read the embarrassment and anxiety in their faces when they sit out.
Sadly, I came back a year later to find the dude was still there, and he was still playing random flotsam while everyone else was playing tunes. If he's still doing this the next time I visit, I'll volunteer to be the jerk and tell him to cut it out.
I think the general problem is that some people lack the musical knowledge that counterpoint is harder than playing the melody. You do not attempt improv counterpoint because you can't play the melody---this is like trying to breakdance because walking is too hard.
Caj wrote: You can usually tell when these folk are about to try some unholy above-and-below-the-melody type noise, because you can read the embarrassment and anxiety in their faces when they sit out.
. . . .
I think the general problem is that some people lack the musical knowledge that counterpoint is harder than playing the melody. You do not attempt improv counterpoint because you can't play the melody---this is like trying to breakdance because walking is too hard.
For some reason whistlers seem to be most prone to this. Thank god it isn't typical for box players.
alurker wrote:.......
For me the essence of the tradition is self expression through ornamentation and variation. Until about 100 years ago it was an art form pretty much exclusively based in solo performance. It is hard for a high level of self expression to come across in ensemble playing.
.....
Let me see now - 100 years ago or so.
That'd be before the guitar really began doing its thang with ITM, would it?
I was not referring specifically to accompaniment and certainly not to guitar accompaniment. People often talk here as if the 'session' is a traditional format, as if Irish musicians used to get together 300 years ago and play tunes. This is not the case. Irish music was usually played solo with some duo playing. Solo pipers, solo harpists, solo fiddlers playing at fairs and in house recitals was the main way that Irish music was heard. Ensemble playing in ceili bands, at house dances and (particularly) in sessions are recent developments in the tradition.
Accompaniment is a separate development which also occurred within the last 100 years, starting I believe with the old US recordings of Coleman et al. Guitar & bouzouki appeared only very recently.
I'm so glad my sessions aren't as full of grumpiness as postings like this topic. I totally understand the sentiment and wouldn't want to hear people playing badly either. But for some reason, despite being as bad as can be and committing some of the sins listed above, people come to me each session and say I shouldn't sit out so much, that I should just jump in and do the best I can, that I should pull my chair in closer etc. And yet I continue to cringe in the corner playing as quietly as I dare, when I dare to play at all.
