Headjoint Rotation Revelation

[Nanohedron]

At least someone's willing to give it a go.

Talasiga, my tuning slide is out at a fairly usual position (about 7/16 of an inch - what's that in metric?).

I habitually go by ear, so I don't have a tuner and can't give such hard figures, but as I mentioned, I have strong relative pitch sense. Not to boast, but for what it's worth, I've had people compliment me on how well I can bring my cittern into tune with itself and with others into the bargain. Trust me, with five double courses, it can be a challenge. So, I'm pretty sure I'm not imagining things with the flute situation.

[peeplj]

Ok, I'll give it a shot.

The Seery's handy, lets try that. This is all with the tuning slide out about 1/2 of an inch, relative to A=440.

My normal position is rotated inwards maybe 20 degrees or so:

low D = -5

G = 0

d = +3

g = +3

With the embouchure straight with the tone holes:

low D = +18

G= +20

d = +27

g = +30

With the embouchure rotated out about 10 degrees:

Low D = +35

G = +35

d = +35

g = +42

Hmmm...interesting.

I'm going to have to play around with this some more, later.

For one thing, it's really hard to get stable numbers on a tuner when you're playing a flute set to an unfamiliar position.

Maybe I can get Shan to watch the tuner for me...probably give better results.

--James

[Loren]

I don't question that you are experiencing what you say you are. I simply chalk it up to the player, rather than the instrument.

I'm at a loss to come up with any reason that rotating the HJ, from a purely hardware (flute physics) point of view, would cause exactly what you're describing - sharp one direction on the top note, flat in the other direction, with everything else unaffected.

Okay, if anything, I would expect the top note to be more affected, than the rest of the scale, for several reasons I won't delve into for lack of time, but I wouldn't expect the note to go sharper one direction, and then flatter when you rotated the head the other, unless it's the player causing the deviations.

If we assume for a moment that it is not the player, then I must ask: Is your flute warped? Ovaled? Is the embouchure hole on the downwind side undercut asymetrically?


Who knows, perhaps Terry has run into this exact event and he'll comment. I'm unfamiliar with it, but more important, I just couldn't skip all the opportunities to rib ya, nano dude.


Loren

[talasiga]

Ok, I'll give it a shot.


..........

Yes James you gave it a shot but didn't include the A in your target.
The primary comparison reference here (if I read Nano rightly) is the first and perfect fifth. I think that is an important reference. I think that the "perfect" of a perfect fifth is an important litmus test.

BTW the relationship is "perfect" on my Whittier bansuris
eg:-

large C# bansuri (flute that is a semitone lower than Irish D flute)
C# "440" G# "440"
and with classical bansuri tonic at XXX OOO
F# "440" C# "440"

F bansuri (flute that is 2 semitones higher than an Irish Eb flute)
F "440" C "440"
and with classical bansuri tonic at XXX OOO
Bb "440" F "440"

[Nanohedron]

I don't question that you are experiencing what you say you are.

Yeah, I had a shrink say that to me, too.

I simply chalk it up to the player, rather than the instrument.

Exactly. Very much a possibility. But I have to say that the Noy is less forgiving in fingering than other flutes I've had as far as having the truest possible pitch per note goes - I really have to take care when covering unplayed holes as I don't tend to anchor with the pinky - and so I wonder if the embouchure itself might not have a similar sensitivity. But, as you say, I'm part of the equation.

I'm at a loss to come up with any reason that rotating the HJ, from a purely hardware (flute physics) point of view, would cause exactly what you're describing - sharp one direction on the top note, flat in the other direction, with everything else unaffected.

Just to be clear, I was referring to relative sharpness or flatness of the fifth interval only in relation to the bell note. I didn't investigate other notes. They don't tend to get my notice nearly as much. And although I didn't mention it in specific, I did assume that the bell note changed, what with rotation doing what it unarguably does; but notable to me was that the relationship between the two notes seemed to change, too.

Okay, if anything, I would expect the top note to be more affected, than the rest of the scale, for several reasons I won't delve into for lack of time, but I wouldn't expect the note to go sharper one direction, and then flatter when you rotated the head the other, unless it's the player causing the deviations.

To the best of my ability to tell, the human side of the equation remained the same whatever rotation I tried. But I'm not ruling out that it still might be due to me; perhaps the shape of the mouth cavity, or a feature of my lips.

If we assume for a moment that it is not the player, then I must ask: Is your flute warped? Ovaled? Is the embouchure hole on the downwind side undercut asymetrically?

-Nope.
-Nope.
-Doesn't look like it.

Who knows, perhaps Terry has run into this exact event and he'll comment. I'm unfamiliar with it, but more important, I just couldn't skip all the opportunities to rib ya, nano dude.


Loren

I hope he will. And I'd be disappointed if you had passed them up.

[Nanohedron]

The primary comparison reference here (if I read Nano rightly) is the first and perfect fifth.

Yep. The fifth can be strikingly problematic in Irish-style flutes - so it seems to me - and that's the one I went for.

[talasiga]

To the best of my ability to tell, the human side of the equation remained the same whatever rotation I tried.....

Yes I agree with you. The "human side" will be constant for that human's set of experiments. The differences in reading will be valid as long as the human element is constant. It is a test of relatives.

[Nanohedron]

To the best of my ability to tell, the human side of the equation remained the same whatever rotation I tried.....

Yes I agree with you. The "human side" will be constant for that human's set of experiments. The differences in reading will be valid as long as the human element is constant. It is a test of relatives.

I could have been clearer. In referring to the "human side of the equation", I had issues of the mutabilities of embouchure shape, flute angle, breath attack, and head position in mind. I'm not ruling out that I may have strayed, but it seems as if I was constant. I really, really tried to be, anyway.

Maybe we need one of those Japanese fluteplaying robots to be 100% sure.

For one thing, it's really hard to get stable numbers on a tuner when you're playing a flute set to an unfamiliar position.

Another thing I see that I need to make clear here is that I wasn't making remarkable changes to the radial position; I can't speak of angles, but I can say that the changes I was playing with would have been, say, only as little as 1/8" difference - could be more, but not by much - on either side of what I'm calling the "sweet spot" position. That's all.

[Doug_Tipple]

Rotating the headjoint is one thing, but having an alto or bass flute with a curved headjoint is another matter alltogether. You have two different joints that you can rotate, and for the life of me I can't find a combination that feels comfortable. For the all-holes-open note (C# on the Irish flute) the flute feels unstable and wants to rotate. I almost dropped it a couple of times. Maybe that is why you rarely see a flautist in an orchestra with an alto flute with a curved headjoint.

I think that rotating the headjoint on a flute with a straight headjoint may cause some flutuations in pitch, mainly due, it seems to me, to a different embouchure that is required (or comfortable) to play the flute with that rotation.

[Nanohedron]

I think that rotating the headjoint on a flute with a straight headjoint may cause some flutuations in pitch, mainly due, it seems to me, to a different embouchure that is required (or comfortable) to play the flute with that rotation.

Remember, though, that the positions I was dealing with weren't radically different from each other. My perception of the case, at least, was that I wasn't having to make detectable mouth adjustments. The notes played as easily at one position as another.

[talasiga]

I think that rotating the headjoint on a flute with a straight headjoint may cause some flutuations in pitch, mainly due, it seems to me, to a different embouchure that is required (or comfortable) to play the flute with that rotation.

from the outset of this topic, it has been patent to me that Nano is raising the issue of relativity between the note
XXX XXX
and
XXO OOO
in terms of perfect interval
and not the issue of change of pitch.

I will add the Seery flute to my comparison later today.

[peeplj]

Sorry, Nano...I always tune to G, so it was the natural note for me to compare against. I figured it it'll shift against one part of the octave, it'll probably shift against another.

I'll try it tomorrow with A and D and let you know how it comes out.

By the way, another thing I found interesting was that the Seery speaks with an entirely different voice with the headjoint rolled out as opposed to in. Not necessarily better or worse (though definitely harder to keep focused at that distance!), but different.

--James

[Nanohedron]

Sorry, Nano...I always tune to G, so it was the natural note for me to compare against. I figured it it'll shift against one part of the octave, it'll probably shift against another.

I prefer to tune to G too, almost exclusively. As a fluteplayer, I find that note to be the best anchor considering that devil A.

But the point of all this is that, general positioning of the embouchure being set (whatever the player's preference for that may be) and basic tuning of the instrument having been accomplished, I think I may have found a supplemental, subtle tuning solution (in my case, anyway) for an initial perfecting (for as close as I can humanly achieve it) of the relative pitch of the A, in addition. Certainly I can't have been the first to have noticed this detail. I'm of the growing opinion that the fifth interval may be a very changeable note in other woodwinds. It's certainly very true of the pipes, too. If I can get to an ideal place for the initial tuning of that note, I just might have a frame of reference when it comes to controlling what happens with it when I play, and hence my interest in what I think I may have discovered. I mean, hey, we keep hearing gripes about out-of-tune fluteplayers. I've noticed that my G can be in tune and yet the A will elude me some days. Might be worth something; who knows?

And I'm NOT ruling out the possibility that I just don't know what the feck I'm doing after all.

I'll try it tomorrow with A and D and let you know how it comes out.

By the way, another thing I found interesting was that the Seery speaks with an entirely different voice with the headjoint rolled out as opposed to in. Not necessarily better or worse (though definitely harder to keep focused at that distance!), but different.

--James

I've tried the more outward positioning out of curiosity, and I don't care for it simply because although I found it's easier to get volume, it takes more breath overall, and there's much less tonal complexity. Bland, you could say. As an ITM player, I want the special character of those overtones and that reediness one gets from the more inward rotation. The easier conservation of breath doesn't hurt, either. So, I'm an innie, not an outie.

[Loren]

I think that rotating the headjoint on a flute with a straight headjoint may cause some flutuations in pitch, mainly due, it seems to me, to a different embouchure that is required (or comfortable) to play the flute with that rotation.

Remember, though, that the positions I was dealing with weren't radically different from each other. My perception of the case, at least, was that I wasn't having to make detectable mouth adjustments. The notes played as easily at one position as another.

Like Doug, I suspect your lips are simply closer to, or further away from the blowing edge, by a small amount, when you make these changes. We lip notes up and down all the time, so you wouldn't necessarily have a problem playing easily from a slightly different position (without knowing it) relative to the blown edge, you do it all the time unconciously to stay in tune. It wouldn't take a radically different HJ rotation to cause this effect.



Loren

[Nanohedron]

I think that rotating the headjoint on a flute with a straight headjoint may cause some flutuations in pitch, mainly due, it seems to me, to a different embouchure that is required (or comfortable) to play the flute with that rotation.

Remember, though, that the positions I was dealing with weren't radically different from each other. My perception of the case, at least, was that I wasn't having to make detectable mouth adjustments. The notes played as easily at one position as another.

Like Doug, I suspect your lips are simply closer to, or further away from the blowing edge, by a small amount, when you make these changes. We lip notes up and down all the time, so you wouldn't necessarily have a problem playing easily from a slightly different position (without knowing it) relative to the blown edge, you do it all the time unconciously to stay in tune. It wouldn't take a radically different HJ rotation to cause this effect.



Loren

I think you're right. I guess what I've found is one way to get that middle spot to lip from, to sharpen or flatten with the least effort. The concept works for me, anyway: especially now that I've been at the pipes for a couple of years or so, I tend to think along those lines more.