Slip Jigs, help!

[Cynth]

We're thinking the same way. I think thinking in 3's makes sense. I can't actually grasp the other possibilities---I think I'd have to see some music to get it. But I don't think that music would be a slip jig.

[BigDavy]

Hi Cynth

The Butterfly is a lovely slipjig,(one of my competition slip jigs), but a beginner bodhran player would only hit 8 beats out of the 9 i.e. 1-3 123 123 for this tune, maybe this is what is putting Fishie off and he is actually playing the tune correctly.

Maybe he should record what they are doing and post it here, then we could see if there is a problem, and what to do about it.

David

[talasiga]

We're thinking the same way. I think thinking in 3's makes sense. I can't actually grasp the other possibilities---I think I'd have to see some music to get it. But I don't think that music would be a slip jig.

As I said earlier I don't play enough ITM and well enough to know but I know about rhythms to fit in with a lot of music. (My rhythm understanding is from an Indian perspective and I have heard tabla maestros play to Irish music and Greek music with success even though they aren't conversant with those traditions).

If you and Douglas and others say that the 9 unit cycle in slip jigs is predominantly 123 /123/123 then I have learnt something that will help. Particularly significant because my Irish sitarist friend is forever pulling out his guitar and his banjo and prodding me play Irish flute music with him. I have been able to improvise stuff with him to his great delight but he has set me an assignment to learn a couple of slip jigs by NEXT TIME!

However, it is not necessary for the drummer to play a 3-3-3 rhythm to meet the needs of a 9 unit cycle. The drummer could play something like (for example only) a tabla (matta taal) cycle of 9 expressed (in matrix) as
2-1-2-1-1-2. AS I DON"T KNOW WHAT A SLIP JIG REALLY IS (technically) other than it being a piece in 9/8 which sounds like a waterwheel that doesn't quite make its full round I don't know whether such a rhythmic accompaniment would be appropriate to this tradition. But I do know that 3-3-3 is rhythmically pretty simple and basic and I can't figure out why fishie got confused with it UNLESS (and I speculate) his bodhran accompanist was playing a different pattern BUT STILL withing the 9 unit cycle. And this is why I suggested some of the other drum patterns thinking that this is what might have been happening in fishie's case.

Only yesterday I was at an acoustic concert where the tabla player was doing daadra ( a 6 cycle = 3-3) but the effect of his intricate patterning made it sound like 4-2. So what is basically a pattern that goes
Dha Dhin Naga | Dha Tin Naga
became something like
Dha Ga Dha | Ga Tita Tirikita
which (putting aside the notional niceties of indo rhythm theory) evinced the following
Dha Ga Dha Ga | Tita Tirikita

NB. I am just giving the matrices here - the drumming was much more intricate than this.

[djm]

Maybe I'm extrapolating this too far, but I'm guessing Talasiga is talking about setting the beat to match the phrasing of any particular slip jig. That would mean altering the beat from one slip jig to the next, as the phrasing is seldom the same. But this would negate the fact that slip jigs are dance tunes and must, beyond anything else, maintain a steady and constant repeating beat.

Its easy to get lost in slip jigs by following the rhythm of the phrasing, but these phrases are not always constant within one tune, let alone going from one slip jig to the next. I would suggest listening to expert players of ITM, and notice how easily they slip back and forth between double jigs and slip jigs. The simple beat of 123123 works, whether it is 6/8 or 9/8.

djm

[talasiga]

Maybe I'm extrapolating this too far, but I'm guessing Talasiga is talking about setting the beat to match the phrasing of any particular slip jig.
....... but these phrases are not always constant within one tune, let alone going from one slip jig to the next.
.......

No, I wasn't talking about that. Yes, I have noticed that the phrases are not always constant within the one tune. I was merely trying to work out why, if the slip jig is 3-3-3, fishie got so confused with it when playing along with a purportedly good bodhran player.

Of course I realise that the slipjig is a dance form and that the rhythm must be constant BUT, speaking "universally" again and not pretending to be ITM specific, while the percussionsist's articulation (forgive me for using that word!) must be consistent with the notional rhythmic pattern underpinning the piece it need not be copycat and ditto for the dancer's steps. I also wonder if this is the case in ITM.

I suspect that if, in slipjig, we must articulate 3-3-3 at every level (drummer, melodist and dancer) then fishie's accompanist was playing a rather intricate expression of it and fishie needs to suggest to him or her to play a very simple bodhran accompaniment until fishie gets hooked.

[Fishie]

Wow. If I can't figure it out with all this info, I'm hanging up my whistle!

:)

[colomon]

I was merely trying to work out why, if the slip jig is 3-3-3, fishie got so confused with it when playing along with a purportedly good bodhran player.

Unfortunately, (or perhaps fortunately, if you are Fishie) if you can play along with recordings but not with your drummer, the most likely explanation is your drummer doesn't know how to play slipjigs.

I suppose the last question is, can Fishie play them successfully without any backing at all, recorded or live? That's the acid test...

[Cynth]

The Butterfly is a lovely slipjig,(one of my competition slip jigs), but a beginner bodhran player would only hit 8 beats out of the 9 i.e. 1-3 123 123 for this tune

And this is why I suggested some of the other drum patterns thinking that this is what might have been happening in fishie's case.

Yoy guys, I should just clarify that I don't have any ideas whatsoever about percussion instruments. I was just talking about how I would count it out to learn to play it on the whistle or something. That is interesting BigDavy about how the bodhran would play, it does seem like it would add more to the music---it would be more interesting to the ear. talasiga, I think a good percussionist could pick up on the feeling in lots of different kinds of music and enhance it. You better start practicing those slip jigs now!

[talasiga]

I was merely trying to work out why, if the slip jig is 3-3-3, fishie got so confused with it when playing along with a purportedly good bodhran player.

Unfortunately, (or perhaps fortunately, if you are Fishie) if you can play along with recordings but not with your drummer, the most likely explanation is your drummer doesn't know how to play slipjigs.
...

Well, you're speculating and so am I. Only Fishie and his or her drummer may know the real story.

My experience is that often I can play along with my flute to a recording of classical indo music but FACE to FACE with my tabla teacher (world class performer) I can lose the plot because of the sheer explosive power of experiencing him live.

Playing along with recordings has its uses but we should not be lulled into a false sense of security by that any more than the false sense of security evinced by playing from a sheet of dots.

What do you reckon?

[colomon]

Based on my experience with bodhran players, I reckon him not knowing how to play slip jigs is more likely than him being so darned good he is hard to follow. Especially because if he really were that good, he would recognize there was a problem and simplify to help out Fishie rather than just ripping along doing his thing and letting the tune die.

Not to say I haven't know world-class bodhran players -- we have a local all-Ireland winner who sometimes pops by to play tunes -- just that for every great player I've known, I've run into four or five who could barely keep the beat on reels and jigs, and slipjigs would have been completely out of the question.

[Congratulations]

This post is only vaguely related.

On a side note, if any of you are familiar with Blue Rondo a la Turk (Dave Brubeck), the main motif of that piece is in 9/8. The rhythm is actually |12,12,12,123|12,12,12,123|12,12,12,123|123,123,123|. Very fun little piece from an analyzation standpoint.

Of course, in the middle of the piece it starts a call-and-answer idea with a blues idea in 4, then the main idea in 9.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[colomon]

The band Millish has recorded "Blue Rondo" on pipes and fiddle, in a set with "The Dusty Miller" and "The Scholar". Great stuff. And off topic.

[Eldarion]

I think it would be a more advantageous attitude to take, for some to be less presumptious about a music one is ignorant about. It is unfortunately a commonly seen attitude amongst experienced musicians in other genres of music to assume too much, thinking that things carry over when they would do better listening to the music with an open ear.

For anyone who has listened well, they will realise that no ITM muso worth his/her salt plays jigs with an emphasis like 123 123. Or slip jigs 123 123 123. It may well be written on sheet music - which many people learn from before they are ready, causing great misconception - but its certainly not the way to play any sort of jig. If you want to learn how to play your jigs and slip jigs properly, listening and developing your listening skills is essential. Listening to good musicians preferably those with clear phrasing, unobscured by accompaniment is a good exercise even if nothing else.
Then read this:
http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/ ... bells.html
Then listen again.

[Cynth]

Well, I must plead guilty. I have been listening quite a lot lately but I guess I'm not hearing quite right. I shall try again with this pattern in mind. And I won't answer questions like this anymore!



Commentary
Shandon Bells is a common double jig, named after the bells of a famous Cork city church. It is the first tune in O'Neill's and Bane's playing follows that setting almost to the note. Bane employs a minimum of ornamentation, just enough to help the tune along. Little variation is used overall: the playing depends mostly on the rhythm and the phrasing for itss impact. It is music that would be described by players in Clare as "nice and steady", which is a great compliment, if ever you get it. The style of phrasing empoyed here is described in detail in Pat Mitchell's "Rhythm and structure in Irish traditional dance music, part one" in the Journal of the Sean Reid Society, Vol. 1 (March 1999).

The basic building blocks of the tune are made up of the first three notes of the two groups of three in the bar, plus the first one of the second group. The remaining two notes of the bar lead up to the next "phrase". This is a distinctly different approach from the often heard phrasing the tune by the bar, and it goes like this:

1 dB AFD D

2 FA ded d

3 BA BGE E

4 GA B2A B

The four "blocks" makeup the longer phrase that is the first half of the first part of the tune.

Notes
Please note that the transcription was done with an imperfect ear and without slowing down devices, while I have indicated certain notes used in cuts, in some cases I can not actually distinguish which finger is used to cut a certain note and have made an informed guess. The main feature of this playing is however the rhythm and phrasing, creating a bouncy performance with great lift, achieved with a minimum of ornamentation but with great insight into the tune itself. It shows that a great performance by a traditional player does not need to incorporate the shower of fingers of the virtuoso.

Peter Laban
http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/ ... bells.html

[talasiga]

[ Talasiga's note: the initial post by Eldarion quoted a part of Talasiga post and has now been edited out]

I think it would be a more advantageous attitude to take, to be less presumptious about a music one is ignorant about. It is unfortunately a commonly seen attitude amongst experienced musicians in other genres of music to assume too much, thinking that things carry over when they would do better listening to the music with an open ear.

For anyone who has listened well, they will realise that no ITM muso worth his/her salt plays jigs with an emphasis like 123 123. Or slip jigs 123 123 123. It may well be written on sheet music - which many people learn from before they are ready, causing great misconception - but its certainly not the way to play any sort of jig. If you want to learn how to play your jigs and slip jigs properly, listening and developing your listening skills is essential. Listening to good musicians preferably those with clear phrasing, unobscured by accompaniment is a good exercise even if nothing else.
Then read this:
http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/ ... bells.html
Then listen again.

Last edited by Eldarion on Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:34 pm; edited 2 times in total

If you were to read my posts without your presumptions you will see it is not I who has suggested the 123 emphasis but others who seemed more conversant with ITM analysis than me. If you read my posts you will see from the onset I was suggesting other patterns for the slipjig based on my cross cultural tempered intuitions and experience of live and recorded ITM listening.

This is not the first time you have suggested that I am presumptious or assumptious about ITM and used my non ITM background as a ground for attack. Your claim that I am ignorant of ITM is unfounded as I have been a listener of it for almost 30 years. I may not be an academically informed listener but I know what I like and I am entitled to relate it to my frame of reference.

Please read my posts in this topic again and demonstarte to me where I have made a prescriptive pronouncement about ITM which would warrant the label of presumptious. I would have hoped that my posts may have been interesting, if not helpful. I, myself, always learn a lot from the responses I get to my posts. Unfortunately, I learn little from your sort of response.