The Irish Flute Embouchure - nature or nurture?

[mcdafydd]

wow, the fact that I laughed so much at that shows how much of a flute dork I really am!!

[fyffer]

I don't remember which number this is (1?), but for me it just happened.

I think I could always get some sort of sound out of a flute (trained myself on beer bottles of varying degrees of emptiness), then picked up a bamboo flute (G-ish) at some sort of craft/folk fair and could play it pretty much right off the table.

I'd go with the Nature/Instinct line on this one.

I've tried to show people (adults) how to do it, mainly on the fife (recruits coming into our Fife and Drum corps), and it's a very difficult thing to teach, not having been taught myself. "Just do it like this," I say, demonstrating. They make the face I make (or close to it) and out comes a wispy stream of air, then they fall over from lack of oxygen to the brain.

I think to some extent, either you've got it, or you don't.
Not that it can't be taught, but it's a "feel" thing more than anything else, I think.

[ChrisA]

Hmmm, I think it can't really be 1... who would develop their tone on the flute without
having -heard- the flute played? So, even if there's no tutelage, there's still imitation of
existing tradition. Certainly I've gotten pointers on tone. The only 'lesson' I've had was
a 30 minute bit at a weekend folk festival.

I think the pure 'natural' sound on a flute is a strong, clean tone, as played by some irish
players and often played in airs. From there you can move 'in' and get the darker, reedy
tone and 'out' for a more airy classical tone. I think those tones are definitely 'taught' in
some way, if only in an imitative way, though I think the hypothetical natural desert island
player would find those tones and use them as colors around the central tone.

In terms of the classical tradition, I'm not trained it at all, so maybe I don't know what I'm
talking about, but it seems to me that the playing is so far to the airy edge and the breath
vibrato so disconnected from everything else about generating sound on the flute that I
can't imagine it as being 'natural' (though, I suspect, if one grew up listening to classical music,
and then picked up a flute, that would be the sound 'naturally' arrived at by imitation... )

[seisflutes]

I think I could always get some sort of sound out of a flute (trained myself on beer bottles of varying degrees of emptiness)

This is me too, although they were not beer bottles, more likely juice bottles(I'm still only 17). I taught myself a bit on a bamboo flute loaned to me by a friend, then on a bohem flute from a thrift shop. I went to a teacher after playing for about three months, and she was shocked that I'd only been playing that long because of my tone ( I could do hard low C ). I've made some changes in my embouchure since then (when I got my wooden flute) in order to get the more Irish tone, rolling the head in more and stuff like that, but it's always been instinctive for me.

[scooter587]

I came to flute after 25 years of playing Irish fiddle, so I already had a strong notion of what Irish flute in general sounds like, and also a sense of experimenting with an instrument and technique till you get a sound that more or less matches what you hear in the players you admire. But any sort of embouchure did not come naturally for me, so I took four lessons from a classical flautist--the only local option. Luckily, she specializes in Baroque flute, so my wooden flute fit within her world view. In four short lessons, she focused mostly on posture, diaphragm control, and finding a relaxed embouchure.

In the two years since, I've kept the emphasis on "relaxed" and I've learned to support the air stream from my diaphragm, but otherwise I have only three rules of thumb as I develop my technique:

1. It shouldn't be painful. (No death grip, no lock jaw, no crooked neck)
2. As much as possible, aim toward the "effortless" end of the spectrum. (E.g., find a way to get tone, pulse, and volume with no more breath than it takes to have a conversation)
3. Given 1 and 2, do whatever works to get a sound like the fluters whose sound I admire.

So I've had a few lessons; picked up tips from other players; and read through Vallely's Timber tutorial, Michael DeBosch's Simple Flute book, and Grey Larsen's tome.

But where I feel the most benefit to my embouchure has come is through listening, listening, listening to a range of fluters I want to emulate *and* playing a lot, mindful of the sound I'm after.

So--short answer for Terry--for me it's a combination of all three of your sources, but the deeper I get into this, the more I rely on what feels natural and produces the tone I'm after.

[spittle]

Definitely a combination of #1 and #3 for me. A few pointers from a friend, then just plain old listening, listening, listening then practicing, practicing, practicing, . I take the occasional lesson, but that's pretty much just learning a new tune or two and getting specifics on ornamentation, not really developing tone, timing, or swing.

I also read (past and present tense) voraciously on the subject (simple-system only, I don't care for the tone or mechanics of the Boehm), and tried to put it into practice which that pretty much falls into the #3 category as well.

One of the things that attracted me to Irish music, was the lack of intimidating, formal training neccessary to even get started such as I imagine (perhaps wrongly) a player of classical music would need (or even Jazz), what with knowledge of those bloody, scales, keys, perfect tone, etc.



Cheers,
- Ryan

[mcdafydd]

In terms of the classical tradition, I'm not trained it at all, so maybe I don't know what I'm
talking about, but it seems to me that the playing is so far to the airy edge and the breath
vibrato so disconnected from everything else about generating sound on the flute that I
can't imagine it as being 'natural' (though, I suspect, if one grew up listening to classical music,
and then picked up a flute, that would be the sound 'naturally' arrived at by imitation... )

But, since the boehm flute is a chromatic instrument, albeit originally designed for classical music, there are certainly no rules saying that you have to have vibrato and play only classical music on it (not meaning to sound patronizing at all ).

[talasiga]

I don't remember which number this is (1?), but for me it just happened.

.....

Same here. In 71 I got my first bansuri and I played about with that for about a month before I could get a consistent sound (I think that was G key). (Prior to that I had been playing those Indian tin whisyles for some years so fingering was not an issue for me.)

A little after that, in Australia, the only decent bamboo flutes procurable at that time were Oriental "dizi" and I grooved around with them for a while - even made a soundtrack for an educational production about Oriental painting styles.

Moving to Irish flute wasn't difficult but I must admit - not a week goes past without me learning (or discovering) something new to improve my playing - even on samll bansuris.

My biggest issue was losing my teeth many years ago and having to adjust to new dentures every 3 years or so.

I reckon, if you got a normal mouth with your own teeth, the sky is no limit.

I hope this helps your query Terry.

[fantomas]

about the teeth, it would be interesting if more people would chime in on that, not only with the loss of them but also orthodontic work. Would the braces force radical changes? i mean, they slurr the speech and one has to get used to the new hardware.

[ChrisA]

My biggest issue was losing my teeth many years ago and having to adjust to new dentures every 3 years or so.

I reckon, if you got a normal mouth with your own teeth, the sky is no limit.

Err, maybe I'll go make an appointment with my dentist now...

--Chris

(edited to fix quoting)

[BillG]

fantomas

about the teeth, it would be interesting if more people would chime in on that, not only with the loss of them but also orthodontic work. Would the braces force radical changes? i mean, they slurr the speech and one has to get used to the new hardware.

How about 4 Titanium implants with a Titanium bar across them (screwed into) and a full partial on top of that. The problem is that Titatanium has no feeling and finding a stable place to rest the flute on the upper chin is a problem. But why stop because of that? Just adjust! And I'm still working on that.

BillG

[Blackbeer]

Well I am deffinatly not a natural. It took me weeks to get any noise at all. When it finaly happened it just happened. No idea what I did. One thing that set me on my way once I was able to produce some sort of tone came from someone right here, though I don`t remember who. The suggestion was to aim for the bottom edge of the hole. At first I couldn`t get it but when I could finaly visualise it, it happened. Now when I`m playing I couldn`t realy tell you what I`m doing mechanicaly. I just go after the sound the tune dictates to me. Do I have an Irish sound?, beats me. Do I sound like the people I listen to?, NOT. Do I enjoy the sound I make?, yep. I know I change my emboucher countless times throughout a tune in order to express the feeling the tune gives me. I also realize this is an endless persute which I am so glad to have run into. So what number is that?

Take care

Tom